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On this episode of The David Frum Present, The Atlantic’s David Frum begins with reflections on how Donald Trump’s sweeping immigration crackdown has reworked America into what he calls a “society based mostly on concern.” Frum warns that the president’s strategies danger discrediting not simply immigration enforcement, but in addition legislation, police, and the very thought of democratic legitimacy.
Then Frum is joined by his Atlantic colleague Caitlin Dickerson, whose Pulitzer Prize–profitable reporting has laid naked the human and institutional realities of immigration enforcement. They talk about her newest investigation into the staggering enlargement of ICE and the One Massive Stunning Invoice Act, which has supercharged its funds to unprecedented ranges. Dickerson explains how billions of {dollars} in new funding are fueling mass detention, empowering private-prison firms, and reshaping U.S. diplomacy whereas failing to unravel the core challenges of immigration.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
David Frum: Hi there and welcome again to The David Frum Present. I’m David Frum, a employees author at The Atlantic. My visitor this week can be Caitlin Dickerson, a colleague of mine at The Atlantic who has gained the Pulitzer Prize for her reporting on immigration, and we’ll be discussing at this time the astonishing progress of the immigration-enforcement equipment in america below the Trump presidency.
I need to open with some private reflections of my very own on the immigration topic. As these of you who’ve adopted my work in The Atlantic might know, I’ve written about this subject over many, a few years, and my sympathies have broadly been with the necessity for stricter immigration management than america has seen within the latest previous. In January of 2021, shortly after President [Joe] Biden took workplace, I wrote an article that apprehensive that his persevering with a lax method to immigration in america would show a consequential mistake overshadowing his total administration. And sadly, that turned out to be appropriate. The immigration enforcement below President Biden remained very lax, virtually to the top of the administration. And certainly, immigration was some of the necessary points that defeated Kamala Harris and elected Donald Trump in 2024.
Since Donald Trump took workplace in 2025, now we have seen an astonishing, breathtaking crackdown on immigration in america. You may learn the impact of that crackdown within the statistics. The Heart for Immigration Research—a immigration-restrictionist group, however one which does good numbers—experiences a internet 2.2-million-person decline within the foreign-born inhabitants of america within the six months since Donald Trump took energy. Of that 2.2 million internet decline, 1.6 million is accounted for by unlawful aliens. However 600,000 of the online decline seems to be that america is dropping extra authorized residents than it’s gaining, one thing that I don’t assume has occurred because the Nice Despair.
Now, the uncooked numbers solely start to inform the story. A lot of the story, as informed by Caitlin, is a crackdown on the streets, within the public locations, within the parking heaps and colleges and even courtrooms of America the place law enforcement officials or paramilitary officers—typically wearing non-uniforms, typically with out badges or identification, typically with their faces disguised—are seizing folks, most of them with out standing, however not all of them, a few of them even U.S. residents. Seizing them, placing them into vans, driving them away, providing them no course of, and within the worst instances, sending them off to dungeons, prisons, in international locations that the particular person apprehended has by no means seen earlier than, has no contact with. We’ve seen folks ending up in South Sudan, individuals who haven’t any reference to El Salvador ending up despatched for all times—at the least, that was the speculation—to a jail in El Salvador. Among the folks within the El Salvadoran jail have been launched, and so they have informed of horrors, of circumstances that quantity to torture, for individuals who have been accused of no crime, convicted of nothing, who had been seized as a result of the authorities believed, perhaps accurately, that they didn’t have standing—however didn’t show something, and definitely didn’t show that these folks had completed something unsuitable in america.
For these of us with a restrictionist perspective, Trump is providing a satan’s discount. He’s shifting the nation towards a extra restrictionist coverage, however in methods that can’t be sustained, that shock the American conscience and which can be damaging the American financial system.
We’re seeing, additionally, every kind of unwanted effects. It has develop into rather more tough for authorized folks to journey to america. Scientific analysis in america is being impeded and restricted and broken by this crackdown. We’re seeing a revival of a form of ugly blood-and-soil nationalism in america and this sort of pornographic fascism of among the recruiting movies for Donald Trump’s immigration police, that are designed to enchantment to precisely the form of one that ought to by no means be trusted with authorities energy and by no means with a gun, and by no means with the facility to make arrests.
Natan Sharansky, the thinker and now politician in Israel, as soon as distinguished that there are two basic sorts of societies: societies based mostly on concern and societies based mostly on freedom. The Trump administration is popping america, for hundreds of thousands of the individuals who dwell right here, right into a society based mostly on concern, and a concern of society can’t be a really free society. We have now had a latest case the place an American threw a sandwich at immigration police in a gesture of disrespect. Now, I strongly advocate that everyone present respect for the police, and when you truly categorical your disrespect by means of the throwing of a bodily object, there are gonna be penalties for that. No person must ship—this occurred—20 armed officers to the home of a sandwich flipper, to seize him and seize him off to a courtroom. That’s an instance of a society changing the rightful request for respect for the police into an insistence on concern of the police that damages the very which means of what it means to be free.
The worst factor of all, from my perspective, once more, as somebody who comes from a restrictionist outlook on this, is the Trump administration is educating Individuals to consider immigration in all of the unsuitable methods, and it’s educating them to consider immigration in ways in which, as a result of they’re so unsuitable, as a result of they’re mistaken, are finally going to subvert itself.
The immigration downside to america will not be an issue of an invasion, and it’s probably not an issue of crime. International-born folks, on common, are much less prone to commit crimes than native-born Individuals. I feel a manner to consider it’s immigration is a bit bit like rainfall. An excessive amount of—you get floods and disasters. Too little—you get dying. Success and prosperity comes from having the correct amount and management and regulating, to the extent you may, the circulate of water in a manner that offers life and doesn’t flood the society with numbers that it can’t take in.
Immigration is a useful resource that should be managed intelligently. It’s a query of roughly, and who and why the optimum variety of immigrants will not be zero, and the apply of attempting to eradicate even all unlawful immigration will not be possible—not in a free society and never with no form of degree of police intervention that Individuals don’t need and shouldn’t need.
What’s going to occur as Individuals see what Trump is doing—And as they take in the implications in issues like fewer folks doing every kind of jobs that must be completed, and that Individuals won’t do on the wages that the American financial system expects these jobs to get (jobs from gardening to roofing, not simply agriculture, however development of every kind, meatpacking)—there’s going to be a blowback. There may be going to be a reversal. We’re going to discover the pendulum, simply because it swung very far within the restrictionist path below the lax insurance policies of President Biden, below the insurance policies of Donald Trump, it’s going to swing as far or farther, as onerous or tougher, in the other way. Donald Trump is devouring the legitimacy on which any public coverage must relaxation. And he’s convincing Individuals that immigration restriction doesn’t imply the rule of legislation; it means the rule of police. It means the rule of precisely the form of police you don’t want to have being police.
My dialogue with Caitlin will go deeper into all of those points, however I need to say, as somebody who has been on the opposite aspect of this, I’m very apprehensive in regards to the path the nation goes and that what the Trump individuals are proclaiming as success is a self-devouring error that may stain the nice title of america, discredit legislation, discredit police companies, discredit enforcement, and finally discredit the very trigger that Donald Trump ostensibly needs to help.
And now my dialogue with Caitlin Dickerson. However first, a fast break.
[Music]
Frum: Caitlin Dickerson is considered one of America’s most tireless and brave investigative reporters. She began her profession at Nationwide Public Radio, the place she gained a Peabody Award for her work. She then vaulted to The New York Instances, and in 2021 joined me and all of us at The Atlantic as a gratefully welcomed colleague. Her reporting on the Trump administration’s child-separation coverage for The Atlantic gained a Pulitzer Prize in 2023. The following 12 months—and that is essentially the most superb piece of journalism I feel I’ve ever seen—Caitlin Dickerson walked the human-trafficking route by means of Panama, taking dangers that should have harrowed her household and mates.
We’re right here at this time to debate her most up-to-date story for The Atlantic, in regards to the surge in progress of america immigration forms: “ICE’s Thoughts-Bogglingly Large Clean Verify.”
Caitlin, welcome to this system.
Caitlin Dickerson: Thanks, David. Thanks for having me.
Frum: Okay, so let’s begin. How huge is huge? How huge is ICE?
Dickerson: It’s enormous. It’s enormous, below this One Massive Stunning Invoice Act that I wrote about. So, taking ICE alone—it’s simply considered one of our immigration-enforcement companies—its funds was about $8 billion previous to this invoice. It’s going as much as $28. It’s greater than tripling. And that is at a time when Individuals are seeing ICE brokers out on the streets, and their communities are reacting actually strongly to the aggressiveness of the marketing campaign below manner below the Trump administration to deport as many individuals as attainable.
And so that you’re speaking about greater than tripling the funds of that one company alone. They need to add 10,000 new brokers. So greater than doubling the variety of brokers that they’ve. And also you’ve additionally acquired $45 billion going towards detention, $45 billion going towards a wall—these enormous numbers that I attempted to check to assist folks wrap their arms round. In complete, the $175 billion that’s going towards immigration enforcement below this invoice is bigger than the annual army budgets of each single nation on this planet, aside from america and China, and it makes ICE alone the highest-funded federal law-enforcement company. And it actually goes to create an infrastructure for immigration enforcement in contrast to something that we’ve ever seen earlier than, as a result of these numbers are simply so massive.
Frum: Okay. So, to not sound like Dr. Evil right here, however billions, trillions, folks can get a bit confused. Is $8 billion some huge cash? Is $28 billion some huge cash? In comparison with what? Attempt to make this concrete to us. You say the entire equipment goes to be greater than the army budgets of all people on Earth. Relative to the remainder of the federal funds, how a lot is $8 billion or $28 billion that they’re going to finish up with?
Dickerson: Certain. So for comparability, the FBI employs about 20,000 folks. Its funds is round $11 billion. The DEA, the next-largest federal law-enforcement company, spends about $4 billion a 12 months. I checked out some police budgets as properly. The NYPD is budgeted for a a lot decrease quantity. Seems, the NYPD overspends yearly by rather a lot, however is budgeted round $6 billion a 12 months, I imagine. So once more, ICE alone spending $28 billion on immigration enforcement is much better, clearly.
Frum: So greater than the FBI plus the NYPD plus the DEA, it feels like.
Dickerson: Certainly.
Frum: Okay. So, do you may have a way, I imply, now, look—it’s an enormous job. It’s an enormous nation. There are millions of miles, hundreds of thousands of individuals. Possibly they want this cash. Possibly that’s what it prices.
Dickerson: Possibly. Nonetheless, one of many causes I wished to put in writing this story is having lined immigration enforcement for therefore lengthy, I keep in mind, 12 months after 12 months, that Congress is de facto harsh on immigration-enforcement companies basically—specifically, ICE, for mismanaging its funds. So yearly, they go to Congress and clarify why they haven’t achieved the objectives that they laid out final 12 months, whereas additionally asking for extra money, and never at all times complying with reporting necessities that Congress locations to clarify the place their cash goes. They do numerous reprogramming of funds from totally different applications, so cash that’s purported to go towards catastrophe aid, towards the Secret Service—that may transfer towards immigration enforcement, in the course of a 12 months when Congress hasn’t authorized it prematurely. That usually can frustrate them. And so simply this 12 months, in 2025, you had congressional appropriators, together with Republicans, who had been actually pissed off with ICE as a result of it was spending cash that it didn’t have. As quickly as Donald Trump took workplace, it elevated its spending and was not funded to finish the fiscal 12 months within the inexperienced, and though it was being criticized as an company, Congress appears to have simply accepted the requests of ICE and CBP for these enormous pay raises, with out asking questions and with out attaching any oversight necessities.
So it was actually fairly stunning for me as a result of it’s not simply Democrats which have been pissed off with ICE overspending for a few years; it’s Republicans as properly.
Frum: Now with the $28 billion, will they have the ability to afford uniforms? As a result of they don’t appear to put on them.
Dickerson: They are going to have the ability to afford uniforms if they need them. However you’re proper: A whole lot of this cash goes to go towards hiring new brokers—as I discussed, ICE needs to tackle 10,000 extra folks—but in addition hiring bonuses and retention bonuses. These are jobs that not lots of people need to take and jobs which have numerous turnover, that individuals depart in a short time. It’s at all times controversial to be an ICE agent. I’ve identified many through the years who don’t inform their neighbors what they do for a residing, as a result of it’s the form of job that clearly numerous Individuals voted for and might help, basically, however relating to your group, whenever you’re face-to-face with the one that’s making the arrest—and maybe additionally know people who find themselves being arrested by ICE—the relationships get much more tough.
And that is throughout social gathering strains. And so ICE brokers at all times really feel that they’re closely criticized for his or her work, that they’re very unpopular. They usually’re appropriate in that. So some huge cash goes to go merely simply towards preserving them on this line of labor, and attempting to develop this federal law-enforcement company.
After which one other huge place the place this cash goes to go is towards know-how. So that you’re seeing fast enlargement of the usage of know-how in immigration enforcement relating to facial recognition, relating to information brokering—so gathering folks’s info, their monetary information, their social-media information, their employment information, working with firms like Palantir and costly authorities contracts to convey all this info collectively directly and create actually deep dossiers on immigrants who the company goes after, video surveillance at ports of entry and at airports, issues like that. These are all very costly instruments, ones that I argue in my piece aren’t actually essential for routine immigration enforcement—however that is what numerous this cash will fund.
Frum: All proper. That’s such an interesting level. I need to take a step again with one thing you simply mentioned in regards to the variety of our bodies. We talked in regards to the sum of money they’re getting, so from a human perspective, how huge is ICE in comparison with the FBI?
Dickerson: So ICE is about 20,000 folks as properly. So related, very related in measurement. However by way of brokers on the bottom proper now, they’ve acquired about 7,000 and so they’ve lengthy argued that these numbers aren’t massive sufficient. Whenever you do take into consideration, as you mentioned, an enormous nation—greater than 11 million folks in america with out authorized standing. However actually it’s not the variety of brokers which have restricted ICE, in recent times, from making arrests; it’s the principles that they face, relying on the administration, for who they’re allowed to go after and who they aren’t.
President Trump lifted all of these guidelines, mentioned all immigrants with out authorized standing are truthful sport. However there are different limitations to finishing up deportations—authorized ones, particularly. You may arrest somebody, however as soon as they really begin to undergo the authorized course of, typically they’ll get out on bond, they’ll pursue some type of authorized standing.
Frum: Eight billion [dollars] was what ICE was getting earlier than. Twenty-eight billion [dollars] is what ICE can be getting below the president’s fiscal invoice. And you then identified that there’s this bigger universe of related funds that aren’t ICE-specific, however are usually associated to the immigration universe. The whole—remind me, you mentioned it was about $175 billion? Okay, so what’s that? What’s within the $175 billion?
Dickerson: So inside the $175 billion, you may have about $3.5 billion which goes towards the courts, and that’s below a separate federal company. They’re below the DOJ. You have got, as I discussed, $45 billion in increasing detention facilities. You’ve acquired $46 billion towards constructing the wall, and also you’ve acquired at the least $10 billion going towards reimbursement funds which have been created. So when states and native governments attempt to assist, like Governor Greg Abbott has volunteered Texas to do, he’ll have the ability to apply for reimbursement funds. And that’s true for native governments as properly. And you then’ve acquired little pockets of cash unfold elsewhere. However actually, the majority of it’s the enlargement of detention, the enlargement of know-how, and the hiring of latest officers.
Frum: Inform me about this new jail system that we’re constructing. Not each viewer or listener will perceive that the federal system is a comparatively small a part of America’s system of prisons and jails. Most people who find themselves in jail or jail are there being held by the states, or generally jails are municipal. The federal system is small. So we’re constructing an enormous, new—relative to the prevailing federal jail system—an enormous, new secondary system. How will it’s like, and the way will it’s totally different from the prevailing federal prisons?
Dickerson: I’ll speak about immigration, specifically. We’ve acquired people who find themselves housed in immigration detention in federally run services which can be contracted by—now we have them run by private-prison firms. After which we additionally, as a federal authorities, hire beds in county jails, for instance, and in state prisons to deal with immigrants as properly.
And the enlargement goes to greater than double the scale of the detained-immigrant inhabitants, largely placing them in privately run federal services. So these services can be operated, greater than possible, by the 2 giants within the private-prison trade: Geo and CoreCivic. They usually’re anticipating tens of 1000’s of extra detainees. So at most, our detained-immigrant inhabitants has been about 45,000 folks on a day by day common, and DHS needs to get that common day by day detained inhabitants to 100,000. So once more, greater than we’ve ever seen earlier than. This implies the development of latest services from the bottom up. It additionally means the retrofitting of outdated services, jails, and prisons which have been closed.
And numerous occasions, what you’ve seen is a jail that’s been closely criticized due to poor circumstances—perhaps you had numerous protesting, political winds modified, and so an enormous jail closed that was beforehand used for legal detainees—and what occurs is ICE will then are available in and retrofit that facility for immigrants.
Frum: Now we’ve all learn very disturbing tales about circumstances in immigration-detention facilities that appear fairly shockingly inhumane for individuals who, in spite of everything, don’t appear to be criminals, precisely. They’ve damaged the legislation, however everybody who speeds, breaks the legislation. Will the brand new funds ameliorate residing circumstances in these detention facilities? Is that a part of what the cash’s for?
Dickerson: It’s not a part of what the cash’s for, and I don’t assume that that may occur, just because whenever you take a look at the invoice, it says that well being and security requirements in these new services that it funds needs to be left to the discretion of the secretary. That’s truly a very huge deal.
So I’ve reported so much on ICE-detention requirements. These are very hard-fought, intensive guidelines which have been developed because the early 2000s, once we actually began to have a meaningfully sized immigration-detention system. They usually cowl all the things out of your medical care that needs to be offered to primary meals wants, entry to a legislation library to have the ability to defend your self, recreation—having the ability to transfer round—and who may be held in solitary confinement for who can’t.
You’re proper that usually, the authorized customary is greater than it’s for legal defendants as a result of the Supreme Courtroom has held immigration detention will not be meant to be punitive. And that’s form of onerous for folks to wrap their minds round, since you’re in a facility that appears and feels very very like a jail and it’s typically equivalent, however theoretically—as a result of, as you mentioned, immigration is a unique sort of violation, it’s a civil violation, and since you’re being held pretrial, you don’t have a standing deportation order but, or you may have one that you just’re interesting—you’re purported to have higher entry, in actual fact, to recreation, to the issues that make jail, as uncomfortable as it’s, are purported to be barely lesser for detained immigrants. All of these requirements, which had been actually tough to uphold, appeared to have gone out the window below the invoice, as a result of it explicitly says that requirements needs to be held to the discretion or, on the discretion, somewhat, of the secretary.
And on the identical time, it’s necessary to notice that the administration below DOGE, particularly Elon Musk’s Division of Authorities Effectivity, actually gutted two workplaces inside DHS that oversaw detention well being and security requirements. So there was a detention ombudsman, after which there was a DHS Workplace of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties. These workplaces are basically not purposeful at this level. And so form of the alternative of what you laid out goes to occur: huge enlargement of detention and little or no oversight.
Frum: Yeah. I’ve not been an everyday customer, however I’ve, every so often, had purpose to go to folks in federal jail, and I’ve at all times been shocked on the low high quality of the meals. It simply looks like such a petty financial system. And we’re spending a few {dollars} a day extra per particular person, per meal, which, within the scheme of issues, wouldn’t be a lot. You would simply make life a bit bit extra civilized and purchase some—and by the best way, take away the one largest grievance that almost all prisoners have about their day by day situation. And also you surprise, in a detention middle the place you’re coping with people who find themselves not criminals and infrequently haven’t been convicted of something, why you wouldn’t feed them correctly. One thing I can’t perceive.
Dickerson: I agree with you. Having hung out in these services and seeing what folks eat—you already know, lunch meat that’s frozen, lunch meat that’s moldy, meals that’s clearly expired. I hung out at a family-detention facility that was truly lastly closed below the Biden administration after a protracted effort to finish household detention. The USA is among the solely international locations within the developed world that detains households. I feel Australia is the one different. As a result of it’s actually, actually tough to detain children for lengthy durations of time and to do it in a manner that’s thought of protected and humane.
And so household detention lastly ended below Biden, however reopened instantly and is ready to develop now below the Trump administration. And at our largest family-detention middle in Dilley, Texas, I reported on households there and heard from actually each single considered one of them that the meals was insufferable, particularly for youths. I had dad and mom inform me that their youngsters would vomit simply from the scent of the meals earlier than they even entered the cafeteria, and youngsters would lose actually vital weight as a result of they might refuse to eat the meals as a result of they discovered it so disgusting.
The rationale, I feel, why you see the meals high quality that you just do—and that is written about in a guide that I discussed in my story known as Immigration Detention Inc. that simply got here out by a professor, Nancy Hiemstra. She’s at Stony Brook College, in New York. She checked out distributors inside detention facilities and located that, in fact, the best way that they generate profits is by minimizing their value. The federal authorities goes to pay them a set sum of money for the companies that they supply. And so the much less they spend offering meals, or relating to medical care, the much less that the medical suppliers spend offering that care, the better their earnings, in fact. So it truly is, I feel, a matter of pinching pennies, and that guide paperwork very properly how these services actually are financial engines.
There are such a lot of totally different folks and organizations earning money inside immigration-detention facilities, and all of it’s predicated on spending as little as attainable, in fact, on the people who find themselves detained there.
Frum: Effectively, this is among the suggestive factors in your story—that we’re not solely constructing services, however we’re constructing vested pursuits. That folks whose livelihoods—the guards, most clearly, however many others—folks whose livelihoods rely upon the preservation of the system—as soon as completed, it’s onerous as a result of one would possibly assume, Effectively, if there’s a political change, simply abandon it. However which may be tougher to do than one assumes, in keeping with you.
Dickerson: That’s proper. Funding for immigration detention, and actually immigration enforcement general, has virtually by no means elevated within the historical past of its existence due to these vested pursuits. So when an immigration-detention facility opens in an American group, it’s typically been fought over. Communities will marketing campaign to convey these services in as a result of they carry jobs and infrequently a whole lot and even 1000’s of jobs relying on how massive they’re. And so that you’ll have county sheriffs who marketing campaign, promising to convey ICE to city. And as quickly as these jobs are created, households rely upon them. These services are typically in rural areas, the place there’s not numerous different financial alternative. In fact, the land is cheaper. So you may construct an enormous detention facility there.
However then the group actually involves depend on it, and it turns into an enormous political downside to attempt to shut it down. And also you even have the key private-prison firms that function the services who foyer in Washington to, in fact, hold them open and develop them. After which the numerous, many different contractors that function inside them which can be all doing the identical factor as a way to proceed offering these companies and to develop these companies, which have grown in recent times. So now ICE detainees have entry to tablets that they’ll use to talk with their household, for instance, that didn’t exist earlier than. That’s another firm that’s attempting to maintain these services open and hold them massive in order that they’ll proceed to make earnings.
Frum: How unexpectedly can we transfer folks out of the services to return them to the nation, ideally, of which they’re a citizen? As you witnessed on that harrowing, harrowing journey you wrote about for The Atlantic by means of Panama, totally different folks come from totally different international locations with totally different levels of oppressiveness. Mexico’s a reasonably good place. It’s unequal; it’s onerous to make a residing, however it’s mainly a free nation. Different international locations are a lot worse. How shortly can we get folks again to the place they’re purported to be, if it’s an appropriate place? Or is that simply taking perpetually because the forms will get greater?
Dickerson: It’s taking a really very long time. Immigration instances can take months. They will take years. The typical time that somebody spends detained fluctuates rather a lot, however at this level, most individuals are spending months, on the very least, in ICE detention. And that’s an necessary query that I elevate within the piece, as properly, is: Is that this huge enlargement of the detention system truly one of the simplest ways to hold out the administration’s objective, if President Trump actually does need to deport as much as one million folks a 12 months? I don’t assume that it’s, as a result of on the identical time that the administration is shifting to develop detention, it’s firing many immigration judges. These are the one individuals who have the facility at hand down a deportation order. You may’t deport somebody with out a kind of.
And the principle hurdles that all of us talked about prematurely of President Trump taking workplace to his immigration marketing campaign actually are authorized ones and diplomatic ones. So when folks land in immigration detention, they’re going to struggle their case. They’re going to use for a type of aid, significantly if, like many detained folks have now—if these are individuals who’ve been right here for a really lengthy time frame, they could have the best to some type of safety. After which you may have the diplomatic hurdles. So that you’ve acquired to get these receiving international locations on board and prepared to just accept a whole lot or 1000’s of their nationals on a month-to-month foundation as a way to hit these excessive objectives. Detaining heaps and many folks doesn’t essentially result in the result of eradicating heaps and many folks, however it is rather costly. And we are able to speak about, if you would like—to get into the relationships between the private-prison firms and the federal companies that they work with in immigration enforcement, and the way I’ve seen that form of result in expansions of detention traditionally that won’t have been essential.
For years—and this has been true, it’s necessary to level out, in Democratic and Republican administrations—the best rating officers at ICE have typically retired into govt roles at these private-prison firms, together with Geo and CoreCivic. And what that does is put private-prison executives throughout the negotiating desk with their former underlings, deciding whether or not or to not develop the immigration-detention system, and underlings who may hope to—and who typically do—find yourself retiring into these govt roles on the private-prison firms as properly.
So I reached out to each of them. Geo acquired again to me and mentioned that there’s no proof to help that this revolving door of hiring results in decrease accountability or greater costs. However for a few years, advocates have raised questions on why these detention services and these detention contracts develop as dramatically as they do after they don’t appear to result in the outcomes that ICE will promise firstly of a given 12 months. , deportations have actually been stagnant during the last a number of administrations with out an enormous quantity of fluctuation. And so Why do these contracts proceed to develop? And what’s the connection between these relationships that exist and the incentives constructed into them and the contracts that end result?
Frum: You’re describing a system that’s turning into more and more voracious at choosing folks up, more and more capacious at storing them for a very long time, however not enhancing at eradicating individuals who should be eliminated.
And so we’re creating this sort of consumption detention however not removing. And one of many issues—that is an incident that most likely has now, due to the Russia occasions, been forgotten, however one of many locations the place folks had been purported to be eliminated to was the nation of Colombia.
Colombia is a rustic with a historical past of serious violence however that has achieved a form of uneasy peace in recent times. And the Colombian authorities—Colombia’s usually been ruled from the best, however they at present have a left-of-center president, and he mentioned, I’m going to proceed to obtain folks. I’ve one situation: They should be handled with dignity. No shackles. That’s the deal. In case you don’t shackle them, we’ll take them—our nationals. Not all people’s nationals; our nationals. And the Trump administration mentioned, Oh, yeah? Shackles. And blew up, after which we acquired right into a commerce battle with Colombia—which is a crucial strategic accomplice of america and a rustic with which america has a free-trade settlement negotiated by President George W. Bush and signed by President [Barack] Obama—over the problem of Ought to folks be shackled?
And one of many issues that—I’m sorry to make this level so lengthy. The legitimation of what the Trump administration is doing depends upon the concept that these folks being detained are very harmful. That’s why it’s a must to shackles.
Dickerson: Proper.
Frum: However the numbers—there are usually not one million folks a 12 months of harmful folks in america to take away. So when you’re going to take away one million folks, most of them can be people who find themselves out of standing however who are usually not harmful. And also you don’t must shackle them. You simply must say, Okay, now we have legal guidelines. You’re out of the legislation. Get on the aircraft. Right here’s your sizzling meal on the aircraft. Welcome again to Colombia, the place you come from.
Dickerson: Precisely. You’re pointing to a difficulty—and there are a lot of examples of it—the place the administration says it needs to do one factor however then behaves in a manner that actually runs instantly counter to it. And numerous it comes again to this basic disconnect between a promise to deport the worst of the worst and a promise to deport one million folks a 12 months. You simply merely can’t do each.
If the administration wished to give attention to the worst of the worst, for instance, it actually wouldn’t must massively develop the detention system that exists, as a result of these can be individuals who have intensive legal information, who are usually not eligible for any type of immigration aid, and whose instances would transfer in a short time by means of the courts. You would possibly run into diplomatic points with their residence international locations being prepared to take them in, however it’s a smaller quantity of people that would transfer shortly by means of the immigration system and who I feel have been focused aggressively below the final a number of administrations, each Republican and Democrat.
Clearly, Trump wished to do a greater job and wished to do a greater job of vetting, specifically, the big numbers of people that got here in throughout the Biden administration. That’s all doable with no huge enlargement of the detention system. However whenever you do develop the detention system, you find yourself sweeping, and also you set these very excessive objectives by way of numbers. You, in fact, find yourself, as you identified, sweeping up heaps of people that’ve been in america for a protracted time frame, haven’t any earlier interplay with legislation enforcement, and whose deportation turns into tough to justify.
So with Colombia, specifically, it boggles the thoughts why the administration would blow up its personal skill to attain a objective that it’s laid out. ICE has been sending out emails with their weekly worst of the worst, the place they discover the instance of the particular person with essentially the most intensive legal document they probably can who they’ve arrested, and have fun it. They usually might proceed to do this in a a lot much less chaotic manner with out spending all of this cash. And that’s why I felt the story was so necessary to put in writing—as a result of, sure, the nation voted for a president who wished to hold out an enormous deportation marketing campaign, or an aggressive deportation marketing campaign, whether or not it meant specializing in individuals who had been very harmful or specializing in massive numbers, however can we truly must spend all of those taxpayer {dollars} as a way to do it? We don’t. And so forth prime of getting a marketing campaign underway that the general public is de facto beginning to query and be concerned by, we now have an enormous quantity of taxpayer {dollars} that might have been spent elsewhere, and extra successfully.
Frum: Let me decide up in your level about diplomatic points. So one of many international locations from which numerous latest folks have come, both because the asylum seekers or easy unlawful immigrants, is Venezuela. And Venezuela is an authoritarian regime below an un-American, anti-American dictatorship—first Hugo Chavez after which his successor, President [Nicolás] Maduro—and vital human-rights points, a rustic very a lot on the Cuban mannequin. At one other time, america would possibly say, Effectively, it’s fairly affordable that an individual would run away from Venezuela and search freedom elsewhere. However the numbers are very massive, and so the Trump administration needs to return the Venezuelans, and it appears like the value of doing that has been to rehabilitate the Venezuelan regime diplomatically.
So it’s not simply that diplomacy is a constraint on the deportation challenge; truly, deportation is reshaping the overseas coverage of america and making Venezuela a extra acceptable—or seemingly extra acceptable—accomplice to the Trump administration than you’ll assume, based mostly on its inner coverage and its exterior coverage, it should be.
Dickerson: So immigration and deportation does present a possibility for diplomacy. And if the Trump administration had been to play its playing cards proper, it actually might have affect. It’s had affect in Venezuela, might have affect in different places the place we’re involved in regards to the politics, locations the place we’re involved about whether or not these international locations have been prepared to take our recommendation or settle for our help, work with us by way of commerce. There’s a actual alternative there. And I feel with regard to Venezuela specifically, there was a deep want on behalf of the present regime to convey again as many individuals as attainable, to forestall the nation from emptying out, as has been occurring in the previous few years. And they also’re a bit bit extra open.
However one wonders why didn’t among the funds that—I imply, we’re speaking about cash and diplomacy. It’s two various things. But it surely isn’t, on the identical time. May now we have spent far much less cash on increasing our enforcement infrastructure in america and spent, as a substitute, a bit on negotiating with international locations to assist them, whether or not it’s change and enhance human-rights circumstances that we’re involved about, enhance democratic freedoms and openness, maybe even construct reception facilities for welcoming people who find themselves prepared to go residence? As a result of there are simply merely logistical issues about accepting massive numbers of deportees, as properly.
So that you’re proper that deportation, and immigration, actually, it does open a diplomatic door. And the query is: How properly will the administration handle these conversations? They’ve been very clumsy, as you already know, and have a number of occasions blown up. And that’s not normally an efficient manner to enhance relations right here.
Frum: Right here’s the final subject space I need to ask you about, which is that this unusual enterprise of third-country deportations. Usually, the rule is you come folks the place they got here from. And among the locations people who find themselves right here illegally come from are fairly good. Like, when you come from Mexico, when you come from Brazil, when you come from Argentina, you already know, clearly america gives greater wages, in order that’s enticing. But it surely’s not so horrible to dwell in Mexico, Brazil, or Argentina. However, when you get right here from North Korea, we shouldn’t ship you again. You’re a real asylum-seeker refugee.
There appears to be rising a apply of taking individuals who come from one nation and sending them again to a very different nation, typically very far distant from any—like South Sudan, and what’s somebody who speaks Spanish purported to do in South Sudan? It’s onerous for me. What’s going on there? How is that this justified? How prevalent is that this apply? Is it rising?
Dickerson: Add this to the checklist of beforehand unfathomables, for the principle purpose that it’s legally doubtful. We have now but to have a remaining willpower on these third-country deportations. They’ve been challenged in courtroom and up to now proceed. However this was the Trump administration’s form of artistic, if you’ll, manner of leapfrogging the diplomatic hurdles that I discussed earlier. As a substitute of convincing Colombia and Venezuela and Honduras and Guatemala and the Caribbean international locations and all of the locations the place deportees are coming from—as a substitute of convincing all of them to just accept their very own nationals, merely go as a substitute to, for instance, El Salvador and persuade them to take 1000’s of individuals from all around the world. It’s simpler. It’s one negotiation as a substitute of 20 or 25, however it’s legally doubtful. There isn’t a precedent for, in massive numbers—aside from in very excessive and individualized instances—deporting folks to international locations that aren’t their very own. And so, sure, it’s rising as a result of we’ve by no means completed it en masse earlier than.
And it’s nonetheless being challenged in courtroom and can proceed to be. It’s onerous for me to see a world by which finally this apply stands up, as a result of it challenges the sovereignty of the house nation of the deportee and that of [the country] that’s receiving these deportees. I imply, it actually questions: What’s nationality? What’s citizenship? In case you don’t have journey paperwork, and also you don’t have permission to maneuver from one place to a different, how legitimate are these borders that we’re working to uphold? So it’s, you already know, underway for the primary time, however—
Frum: It will be already dangerous sufficient when you took someone who’s right here from Venezuela, put them on a aircraft to El Salvador, opened the door, and mentioned, Bye. There’s the bus to city. Hope you may have some El Salvadoran cash with you. However we’re not doing even that. We’re saying, Oh, after which we’re placing you in a jail in El Salvador perpetually with none trial, or any present—I imply, now we have an allegation you’ve completed one thing unsuitable. However usually, in America or anybody below American jurisdiction, if we put you in a jail for the remainder of your life, we show that you just’ve completed one thing heinous to justify placing you in a jail for the remainder of your life.
Dickerson: That’s proper. And that’s an entire different authorized downside with these third-country deportations—not simply that we’re sending folks to a rustic they didn’t come from, however that we’re placing them right into a scenario the place there is no such thing as a clear type of due course of, no clear approach to ever get out of those services. And that, finally, is on our arms. These people have households who stay in america; will they go after the U.S. authorities? That’s only one authorized route that I can think about being pursued among the many many.
It’s a mirrored image of one thing that I reported so much on throughout the first Trump administration, which is that the equipment of individuals within the White Home who’re targeted on deporting as many individuals as attainable—they’re led, as we all know, by Stephen Miller, who has been targeted on the immigration for greater than 10 years in Washington and has actually studied the federal code out and in for authorized methods of deporting folks, however has additionally spent numerous time with different legal professionals, racking their brains about methods which can be untested, which can be unprecedented, that we don’t know to be authorized to deport as many individuals as attainable.
It’s an actual artistic train that they’ve continually underway. They usually’re not afraid to attempt one thing, even when legal professionals are cautioning that it might not maintain up in courtroom. That’s a part of the technique, is: Attempt one thing new, and even when it finally ends up being shut down, you would possibly have the ability to obtain a few of your objective, as a result of these authorized instances take time. So they may have the ability to deport 1000’s of individuals by means of these third-country deportations, and even when finally the practices finish, they’ll be a bit bit nearer to the final word objective. They don’t see that as a foul factor.
Frum: However there’s one factor that they’re not doing, as a result of it takes numerous creativity, however it’s the obvious factor to do. And the factor that may work greatest is the factor they don’t need to do, which is: As a substitute of sending ICE brokers in bandanas, you ship a crew of accountants to massive employers within the home-building and meatpacking trade, say, Let’s see—we don’t need to see any folks right here. We need to see your information, Mr. Employer. Let’s undergo the information. It doesn’t appear like you’ve completed the procedures proper, and right here’s your half-million-dollar fantastic.
And finally, the house builder or the development firm or the meatpacking proprietor: I suppose we should always verify folks’s standing. And as soon as the phrase goes out to all these people who find themselves risking their lives, whom you so courageously traveled with, they’re appearing as rational financial actors as a result of they know when you get throughout the road, you could be deported, however you’ll nonetheless have the ability to get a job. As a result of they, in actual fact, even now—this crackdown administration will not be doing critical work with the forensic accounting and the discovering of employers, as a result of that’s off limits in Republican Congress.
Dickerson: It’s precisely proper, a very necessary level. I’m glad that you just introduced it up, and one other huge query for me that I elevate about this huge funding of cash to hold out immigration enforcement. I don’t assume it’s essential. It’s not rocket science to seek out undocumented immigrants in america. We all know the companies that they have an inclination to work for. They’re on nearly the entire farms and dairies in america that require guide labor. They’re in restaurant kitchens. They’re caring for elders in assisted-living services and in our properties. They’re landscaping. They’re cleansing. They’re working in different hospitality jobs.
That is available info, and it doesn’t require advanced spy ware know-how as a way to monitor folks down, however it might require employer accountability. And the Trump administration is already butting up in opposition to that, already getting pushback from the agriculture trade, from the resort trade. It’s been reported that Trump himself has had undocumented employees on his properties. As a result of we all know what industries depend on them so closely, and we do proceed, to today as a rustic, to ship a deeply blended message to immigrants. On the identical time that you just hear politicians within the information saying, Don’t come to america, or touting the deportation marketing campaign that’s underway now, the roles are at all times there, and I feel it’s complicated for folks. However on the finish of the day, their resolution is led by that rational financial pondering that you just identified—that though there’s a danger, there’s additionally a really clear want for his or her presence.
And when folks get to america, it at all times amazes me how shortly they’re employed. Folks can be employed inside every week; they’ll have one thing, after which inside a month they’ll have one thing higher, after which inside two months they’ll have two or three jobs as a result of the necessity is so excessive. And so that’s one thing that the Trump administration goes to need to face. The strain between its objective and its financial curiosity goes to come back up many times, and goes to interrupt sooner or later.
Frum: So right here’s the very last thing I need to ask you: As you look again in your journey on foot on the immigration route, do you may have any, at this distance in time, later reflections on what you noticed and what it meant?
Dickerson: That’s an enormous one. I imply, there have been so many various issues occurring within the Darién Hole. As a result of I used to be reporting on individuals who had been fleeing all several types of circumstances, from the Venezuelan regime to financial constraints to local weather change, all of them form of come to a head with regard to immigration.
I feel I can say that—you alluded to this a bit bit earlier—in a earlier time, what’s occurred in Venezuela politically would have made Venezuelans form of the perfect asylee in america. As a lot as asylum exists as form of a benevolent pressure, it’s additionally a diplomatic device, in a manner, of exhibiting to the world that our type of authorities is the perfect type of authorities, {that a} free democracy—a capitalist free democracy—is the perfect system. That’s how america has positioned the asylum and refugee resettlement traditionally, and but the opposition to the huge, huge quantity of migration from Venezuela was clearly a lot stronger than the diplomatic curiosity which will have existed in previous a long time.
A whole lot of that pertains to social media and to the convenience of motion and entry to motion that didn’t exist in a long time previous and that does now. I imply, there are such a lot of totally different teams which have capitalized on smuggling, on shifting folks from nation to nation, as a result of these techniques that try to manage migration have been ineffective.
Possibly a remaining thought—and that is in my reporting in regards to the Darién Hole, however I nonetheless imagine it to be true—is that whenever you go about attempting to manage migration, as now we have, by means of merely legislation enforcement and punishment, and attempting to shut holes by pressuring different international locations to revoke entry to visas, all attempting to cease folks from finally reaching america, what’s occurred as a substitute of discouraging migration is non-public trade has popped up. Folks have found out methods to make a number of cash by getting folks by means of and getting them into america.
And so I feel—I am going again many times, in my Darién Hole reporting and in lots of tales that I’ve completed, to the concept that immigration coverage actually must be holistic. You may’t ever achieve success by specializing in one factor. So it’s not simply detention and deportation, as you mentioned. It’s turning towards American employers who make use of undocumented immigrants, and actually, I feel, towards the nation having an trustworthy dialog about our want for immigrant work and an trustworthy dialog about our relationship to immigrants.
I feel there are numerous Individuals in america who assume that, basically, they could help mass deportation aside from the one pal they’ve at church or besides for his or her daughter’s mom, who they assume is an exception—their one connection to someone who doesn’t have authorized standing. And these folks in our lives and in our communities aren’t exceptions. They’re the rule. They’re in each group. All of us have relationships and connections to them. And so we simply must have a extra trustworthy dialog as a rustic about that as a way to give you a law-enforcement infrastructure that’s efficient and a diplomatic technique that’s efficient and a manner of permitting folks in america who dwell and work right here and don’t break the legislation to dwell as full folks, with rights and protections and never dwell within the state of terror that many are actually, due to this kind of chaotic and disorganized sweep that we’re seeing and that we’ve simply handed an enormous paycheck to this with this One Massive Stunning Invoice Act.
Frum: Caitlin Dickerson, thanks a lot to your time at this time. Thanks to your work for The Atlantic. You’re a star amongst us all. Thanks. Bye-bye.
Dickerson: Thanks a lot, David.
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Frum: Thanks to Caitlin Dickerson for becoming a member of me at this time on The David Frum Present. Earlier than I log out, I need to make a private announcement—not one thing I typically do on this platform, however simply this one time. These of you who’re watching this system versus listening to it’s going to have seen over my shoulder {a photograph} of my daughter Miranda, who died in February 2024. I hold the {photograph} there to indicate the world what’s in my coronary heart and in my head, and that Miranda is at all times with me and that I’m at all times pondering of her. That unhappy information this week has been relieved by some comfortable information: My spouse, Danielle, and I wish to welcome to planet Earth a brand new granddaughter, Abigail, born to my son, Nat, and his spouse, Isabel, our daughter-in-law in New York Metropolis, on August 14. That is the primary piece of comfortable information my household has had in a very long time, and I can’t assist however share it with the viewers and mates of The David Frum Present.
Because of The Picton Gazette for his or her hospitality for this program. Because of the manufacturing crew right here at The David Frum Present. As at all times, one of the simplest ways to help the work of this program, and of all of us at The Atlantic, is by subscribing to The Atlantic and likewise by sharing and liking this program on no matter audio or visible platform you might use to assist us to get out the phrase.
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See you subsequent week on The David Frum Present. I’m David Frum.
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Frum: This episode of The David Frum Present was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the manager producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m David Frum. Thanks for listening.
