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On this episode of The David Frum Present, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about President Donald Trump’s escalating assaults on press freedom. David discusses Trump’s lawsuit in opposition to The Wall Road Journal, explains how Trump is utilizing presidential energy to suppress protection of his alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein, and argues that Trump’s second time period represents a deeper risk to the First Modification than something seen in trendy American historical past.
Then David is joined by Consultant Ritchie Torres of New York for a dialog about the way forward for the Democratic Get together. Torres explains why the Democratic heart has change into too passive; how the far left gained affect via depth, not majorities; and why slogans alone can’t remedy America’s affordability disaster. They talk about the rise of performative politics, the necessity for a critical governing agenda, and Torres’s private journey from public housing to Congress.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
David Frum: Hey, and welcome to a different episode of The David Frum Present. I’m David Frum, a employees author at The Atlantic. My visitor this week shall be Congressman Ritchie Torres, who represents the South Bronx in america Home of Representatives. It’s such a pleasure and an honor to welcome Congressman Torres to this program. We’ll be discussing the competition, the battle between Democratic centrists and Democratic progressives in New York Metropolis, state, and federal politics, and we’ll speak, as nicely, about his imaginative and prescient for the long run and route of American politics, and his beliefs and ideas as he’s change into one of the crucial necessary voices in america Congress.
I wish to start with just a few preliminary remarks a few new Trump administration assault on press freedom and press integrity. The Wall Road Journal not too long ago launched an necessary story on the private connections between Donald Trump, the personal citizen—as he then was—and Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier and intercourse trafficker who died in 2019.
President Trump, as he now could be, responded to the story by submitting an enormous lawsuit in opposition to The Wall Road Journal, one in every of many lawsuits in a protracted collection that Donald Trump has introduced in opposition to press establishments. Now, a personal citizen who feels himself or herself ill-used by the press, in fact, has a proper to sue for defamation. These fits often don’t go very far. It’s tough to win a defamation swimsuit in america, and other people often—whereas they might file them or threaten to file them—don’t proceed. For one factor, they stumble upon the specter of discovery, the place the information group will be capable to say, Nicely, because you’re suing us, we get to ask some questions of you, and the individual suing usually doesn’t wish to reply these questions, and that’s the place the entire thing tends to interrupt down. However President Trump has approached these lawsuits in a really completely different method.
The president of america—beneath Donald Trump, the presidency has change into a really completely different sort of establishment from what it ever was earlier than. It has acquired giant new immunity from legal prosecution. The Supreme Courtroom of america has made it rather more tough than it ever was to carry a president to account for legal actions dedicated by that president, or alleged legal actions dedicated by the president. The Courtroom has carved out zones of immunity, wherein the president merely can’t be questioned or challenged about legal exercise.
In the meantime, Donald Trump, whereas he has all these august powers of the presidency, he’s utilizing the powers of a personal citizen to sue in methods which are augmented by the powers of the presidency. The fits that Donald Trump has introduced in opposition to ABC Information and CBS Information have been fits he nearly actually was not going to win. The CBS lawsuit was significantly feeble. It was a lawsuit the place he mentioned he didn’t like the way in which 60 Minutes had edited an interview with Vice President Kamala Harris, and he was invoking a Texas consumer-protection statute to assault the way in which that CBS had edited this interview. Now, the courts, for 50 years, have been very clear in regards to the huge safety of the correct to edit beneath the First Modification, and the Federal Communications Fee has made it clear they need no a part of second-guessing the editorial judgments of reports organizations. This lawsuit wouldn’t go anyplace. It’s nearly assured to not go anyplace. However CBS and ABC have company dad and mom, and people company dad and mom have a whole lot of enterprise earlier than the federal authorities. Within the CBS case, the enterprise was particularly pressing. Paramount, the proprietor of CBS, wished to execute a merger that would want FCC approval. And President Trump’s chairman of the FCC had made clear that regulatory approval might hinge on whether or not Paramount made some sort of settlement with President Trump in his grievance in opposition to CBS.
So President Trump used his regulatory powers overparent companies to squeeze settlements out of ABC and CBS. He additionally extracted an enormous payday for his household from Amazon. Originally of the administration, Amazon introduced that it was going to make a documentary or a film in regards to the lifetime of First Woman Melania Trump and pay her thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of {dollars} for the movie rights for a film that doesn’t appear like it’s ever going to see the sunshine of day, and perhaps was by no means supposed to see the sunshine of day.
So the president is immune criminally. He sues, like every personal citizen, however his lawsuits are backed up by the regulatory energy of the federal authorities and beneath his management, exerting powers in new methods, in ways in which had by no means been contemplated earlier than by the Federal Communications Fee.
Now President Trump is utilizing the identical maneuver in opposition to The Wall Road Journal. Shortly earlier than the story appeared, Vice President [J. D.] Vance made a particular journey to go to the Murdoch household and presumably, or apparently, to plead the case in opposition to the story. In order that was one other type of stress. To date, The Wall Road Journal has resisted, however how lengthy they’ll resist is unclear as a result of the guardian company behind The Wall Road Journal additionally has a whole lot of enterprise earlier than the federal authorities, and naturally, the Murdoch household that owns the guardian company and President Trump have deep different causes.
So what we’re witnessing right here is an try to make use of federal energy by a criminally immune president to snuff out dialogue of issues that bear on that president’s potential legal legal responsibility or potential civil legal responsibility.
You recognize, abuses of energy by the president are likely to bleed one into the opposite. You begin with one thing small, like I don’t need folks to find out about my connections to Jeffrey Epstein, and fairly quickly you’re deploying powers over the press, and also you’re abusing the FBI.
I believe the purpose is: There’s no simple method out of this for any of us. And I believe this is likely one of the explanation why the Epstein story has change into so necessary. No matter is the precise fact of what occurred between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein—how deeply they have been linked, or when their relationship started, when their relationship ended, what occurred in between, why it ended, how Jeffrey Epstein’s future profession, why his prosecution was dealt with in the way in which that it was, what occurred within the closing hours and moments earlier than his loss of life, all of these unanswered questions—so as to shield the current from potential revelations, we’re having to interrupt aside all types of establishments, starting with the FBI and ending with the First Modification.
You recognize, I believe lots of people hope there’s some option to field in or restrict the Trump presidency to deal with it like, you already know, not one in every of one’s favourite presidents, not one in every of America’s most interesting hours, however one thing that doesn’t threaten to do great and everlasting injury to the construction of American authorities. However as this newest story reveals, even in probably the most intimate and private features of his life, Donald Trump’s wants and imperatives, and his angle towards the presidency are a risk to each American establishment.
If we’re going to come back out of this unscathed, we’re going to need to have an actual reckoning with what Donald Trump did. We’re not going to have the ability to field this in. We’re not going to have the ability to say, Nicely, that was then, and that is now, or That is his private life, or These are his private issues. For him, there isn’t any barrier between the private and the constitutional. And for the reverse, there’s no barrier for individuals who wish to shield the Structure in opposition to the individual of Donald Trump. It’s going to be one, or it’s going to be the opposite. And that scenario—right here we’re on the very starting of the second Trump presidency, and it’s solely prone to change into extra intense as that presidency continues.
Now my dialogue with Congressman Torres, and we’ll be speaking about a few of these exact same points in that dialog. I hope you’ll proceed to look at. However first, a fast break.
[Music]
Frum: Consultant Ritchie Torres is a local of the Bronx, New York. His first introduction to the ugly realities of New York Metropolis politics got here at an early age. Congressman Torres grew up the kid of a single mom in a public-housing undertaking. The mildew within the residence unit infected his childhood bronchial asthma, however throughout the way in which, he might see town of New York pouring thousands and thousands of {dollars} of taxpayer cash into subsidies for a golf course.
I don’t suppose he’s ever fairly forgotten that lesson. Congressman Torres’s outrage over the misuse of public assets on this method powered his early rise, his astonishingly early rise, in metropolis politics. He was elected to New York Metropolis Council on the age of 25: the primary brazenly homosexual council member from the Bronx. He gained election to Congress from New York’s Fifteenth District in 2022, age solely 32. The Fifteenth is likely one of the nation’s poorest districts, and Consultant Torres has labored exhausting on the bread-and-butter points that matter most to his constituents, turning into a number one voice for the Democratic pragmatic city heart in opposition to the extremes of far left and much proper.
A champion of civil liberties in each type, Torres has change into one in every of Congress’s simplest and untiring voices in opposition to anti-Semitism and the defamation of the state of Israel. At a time when Democrats are questioning their future, Congressman Torres has provided one of the crucial fearless and forcefully argued visions of a method ahead.
So I’m very happy and grateful to welcome Congressman Torres to The David Frum Present. Thanks for becoming a member of us.
Ritchie Torres: At all times a pleasure to be right here.
Frum: I wish to ask you about one thing I’ve heard you say in numerous your interviews, the place you say the Democratic heart has acquired this passive persona. The Democratic far left feels it may say no matter it likes. The Democratic heart retires and reserves. It jogs my memory in some methods of what occurred within the Republican Get together, my occasion, in the course of the Tea Get together rebellion, when Republican moderates simply yielded the ground. What’s going on? Why? Is it a persona difficulty? Is it an ideological difficulty? Why is the middle so retiring?
Torres: Nicely, look—in politics, depth is future. And it’s nearly inherently the case that an intensely seen vocal minority may have outsized political energy, extra political energy than a silent majority that largely resides within the heart. And so it looks like American politics writ giant is dominated by the extremes, by the far proper and the far left and the symbiosis between the 2. And there’s a way wherein the far left is a response—the trendy far left, the brand new left—is a response to Donald Trump. I might undergo you that there can be no trendy far left with out the election of Donald Trump in 2016. You recognize, it’s Newton’s legal guidelines of physics at work: Each motion produces an equal and reverse response. And it looks like American politics is basically pushed by the countless suggestions loop between the 2 extremes in American politics.
Frum: Yeah. Nicely, let me draw an analogy to the Republican Get together previous to the politics that I do know greatest. I keep in mind I labored a very long time in the past for President George W. Bush, and there was an enormous invoice arising, and there was an necessary Republican vote that President Bush wanted. And the vote was shy as a result of this voter, this member of the Home or member of the Senate, this member of Congress, was nervous in regards to the vote. And President Bush requested, What do you want from me to win your vote? Give me a request. Give me an ask, one thing I can say sure to. Is there something I can do to provide you a member to get your vote? And the senator mentioned, Sure, I want you to make it possible for there are 70 votes in favor of this proposition. In different phrases, he didn’t care what the invoice mentioned as long as he could possibly be a member of a herd. I typically ponder whether, is it that these persons are moderates or they’re simply fearful?
Torres: It looks like, ought to we rename the average class “miscellaneous”? Like, I really feel for those who have been to ask me, “What does the far proper stand for?” I might simply say it’s “America First.” It’s “Make America nice once more.” It’s “Construct the wall,” proper? There are easy, repeatable phrases that distill the worldview of the far proper. And for those who would ask me, “What does the far left stand for?” Inexperienced New Deal, Medicare for All. There are easy phrases that distill the worldview of the far left. I couldn’t let you know what the middle stands for. Like, for those who have been to talk to 100 center-left Democrats, you’ll get 100 completely different responses about what the middle left stands for. And I see that lack of readability of communication as an actual problem for the occasion.
Similar to the Democratic Get together can not merely stand in opposition to Donald Trump, We have now to face for one thing. The middle left can not merely stand in opposition to the far left: It has to face for one thing. And if the most effective the middle left has to supply is Andrew Cuomo and Eric Adams, then that’s a problem that we’re going to have bother connecting with the following era of voters.
Frum: Nicely, a fantastic scholar of the politics of New York, Fred Siegel, wrote a e-book about Rudy Giuliani earlier than his tragic later years wherein he mentioned that the key of Rudy Giuliani’s success in the course of the interval when he was profitable was that he was an excessive centrist—that’s, he had centrist politics, however not a average persona in any respect, not even then. And he was forceful. He was sure. He drove his factors dwelling. He was not afraid. Is that the answer? Excessive centrism?
Torres: I assumed Giuliani was a vicious individual. So there’s something to be mentioned for decency. I’ve profound variations of opinion with a candidate like Zohran Mamdani, however I’m capable of separate my appreciation for his ability from my disagreements together with his politics—not everybody could make that emotional separation, however I can—and I’ve to say, I used to be impressed with the way wherein he ran his marketing campaign. I noticed him marketing campaign within the Northeast Bronx just a few weeks in the past, and he was endlessly smiling. He was visibly having fun with the act of campaigning, the act of interacting with folks. I really feel like we will all study from that. Like, we should always all undertaking the enjoyment of public service, the enjoyment of campaigning. Like, I choose that to the viciousness and nastiness of Rudy Giuliani within the Nineties.
Frum: Nicely, look—politics, like each occupation, has issues it’s important to do and belongings you do much less. And I usually do see folks in politics, and I believe, Why didn’t you select, like, accountancy? I imply, you’re keen on numbers; you hate folks. Why did you select this line of labor? There are a whole lot of issues you are able to do together with your one and solely life. So I imply, politics is for individuals who like going right into a room filled with complete strangers and grabbing arms and introducing themselves and making mates quick. And for those who don’t like that work, there are a whole lot of different helpful, helpful issues you are able to do together with your time on this Earth.
Torres: Look—for me, loving public service and loving folks go hand in hand and you can not have one with out the opposite. Look—there are moments after we could be in a foul temper, and we have now tense moments, nevertheless it’s necessary to undertaking, at each second, the enjoyment of public service as a result of it’s really an honor to be a public servant within the best nation on Earth.
Now, I symbolize 800,000 folks, proper? I get to vote on behalf of and converse on behalf of 800,000 folks, and that’s an honor that I take to coronary heart day-after-day. And for me, it’s simply the best gratification of my life as a result of it occurs to be the world the place I grew up. And so while you maintain that perspective in thoughts, it ought to encourage you to undertaking the enjoyment of public service and the enjoyment of campaigning.
Frum: Nicely, let me press you a bit of more durable, with out going into personalities, with this contest between completely different visions of the Democratic Get together. In 2016 and 2020, there have been nationwide contests—Hillary Clinton versus Bernie Sanders, after which Joe Biden in opposition to the sector—wherein there have been far-left pressures and sort of old school, older, from-a-different-time candidates who spoke from a extra average method however didn’t all the time converse very forcefully. And the competition hung within the stability, and the individuals who made the distinction have been type of older, extra spiritual, extra conservative Black voters who pushed the Democratic Get together away from unelectable progressivism towards Hillary Clinton in 2016 and towards Biden in 2020. And I don’t know the way a lot credit score you give to the state of South Carolina particularly and to any individual there, however that does appear to have been the second the place Biden gained—and doubtless the election of 2020 was gained.
One of many issues I’ve observed since 2024 is the way in which that these sorts of voters—older Black voters, churchgoers, folks with a stake in the neighborhood—they appear to be type of discounted. I’ll offer you two information factors which have struck me. First, there have been a few polls which have confirmed Pete Buttigieg in first place as a Democratic selection for president in 2028, which is ok; he’s a really spectacular individual. However while you have a look at, okay, Nicely, what’s Pete Buttigieg’s help within the Black neighborhood? and the reply is zero, in line with these polls—like, actually zero—you suppose, Okay, how do you get to be in first place in a Democratic choice ballot when Black voters are saying, “Not our man?” And within the latest Democratic main within the metropolis of New York, the candidate who gained was the candidate who did worst amongst Black voters. The candidates who did nicely amongst Black voters each misplaced. Is the Democratic Get together turning its again on these type of average Black voters? What does that imply? Why is that taking place? What does that imply?
Torres: Look—it’s actually true that the strongholds of the Democratic Socialists of America, of the left, in locations like New York are usually college-educated, white-progressive or white Democratic Socialist neighborhoods. In New York Metropolis, it’s the gentrified neighborhoods of Queens and Brooklyn and Manhattan, not a lot Staten Island and the Bronx. In order that’s actually true. And people voters are usually rather more ideological, rather more left leaning.
Older Black voters, I discover, are usually extra relational than ideological of their voting. And—
Frum: As Jim Clyburn mentioned, “Joe is aware of us.”
Torres: Yeah. You recognize, there’s a fantastic joke about Jim Clyburn that J. C. doesn’t stand for Jesus Christ; it stands for “Jim Clyburn” as a result of he was the only driving drive behind the resurrection of Joe Biden within the 2020 Democratic main. However, you already know, it’s usually mentioned that familiarity breeds contempt. In the case of older Black voters, the other is true: Familiarity breeds consolation. Like, Black voters have been extra snug with [Andrew] Cuomo as a result of he was a well-recognized model title. However I might not mistake a choice for a well-recognized model title like Andrew Cuomo for opposition to Mamdani. As Mamdani turns into extra acquainted in Democratic circles, he actually is able to construct help inside the African American neighborhood.
However there’s a generational divide. You recognize, older African People are likely to gravitate towards extra acquainted model names like Cuomo; youthful African People could also be extra left leaning and ideological of their politics. So there’s a generational divide unfolding inside the Democratic Get together.
Frum: However is there one thing happening between these ideological, extremely educated voters you talked about and everyone else? So there was this nice upsurge of protests in 2020 centered in Black America the place it gave the impression of Black People—as a non-Black American, it sounded to me like they’re saying, What we would like is honest and respectful policing. And a whole lot of the individuals who joined up for this motion who have been from completely different communities, who have been extremely educated, mentioned, Proper. What you imply is you need no policing in any respect. And the folks on the heart have been saying, No, we would like honest and respectful policing, however we really would love—whether it is honest and respectful—extra of it, not much less. And this is likely one of the issues that within the New York main, that I believe one of many huge points between individuals who mentioned, We would like extra policing; we would like it honest and respectful, however we would like extra. And those that mentioned, Proper, what you imply is you need much less, and we all know higher, and we’re telling you.
Torres: Look—I’m one of many main critics of the DSA, and my frustration with the DSA is the shortage of self-awareness. There appears to be no acknowledgement that Democratic Socialists are completely different from a lot of the nation, together with most Democratic working-class folks of coloration in locations just like the Bronx. And, you already know, you’re entitled to imagine no matter you would like, however you shouldn’t faux that your beliefs are orthodoxy or the mainstream in America. I keep in mind, once I would trip the subway as a child, I might usually come throughout a quote that learn By no means mistake your sight view for the world. And I really feel just like the DSA usually errors its sight view for the world, and it usually speaks for folks of coloration with out really talking to them, as a result of for those who spoke to folks of coloration in locations just like the Bronx, you’ll understand there was by no means standard help for actions like “Defund the police” and that there have been widespread considerations in regards to the destabilizing impression of the migrant disaster on cities like New York. And so there’s a lack of ideological self-awareness on the a part of the DSA. The DSA is entitled to have no matter beliefs it needs, however these beliefs are completely different from these not solely of most People, however most Democrats.
Now, the one difficulty the place each Democrat is aligned is the priority in regards to the affordability disaster. And the genius of the Mamdani marketing campaign lies in focusing like a laser on the affordability disaster, as a result of it’s really the problem that has probably the most resonance with most voters. Not everybody agrees on the answer, however everybody agrees—within the Democratic Get together, and even past—that it’s change into the central problem confronting town and the nation.
Frum: Nicely, I’m undecided you’re entitled to say you’re—nicely, suppose I say this: Right here I’m. I’m a politician. I’m from the Democratic Socialists of America, and I’m very involved in regards to the affordability disaster. Actually? Are you? That’s nice. Nicely, what’s your resolution? My resolution is these magic wishing beans I’ve in my pocket. Aren’t I entitled to say, In case your resolution is magic wishing beans, you’re in all probability really not that revved up in regards to the disaster, as a result of for those who cared, you’ll search for a greater thought than magic wishing beans?
Torres: Can I problem—you’re placing me within the place of defending the DSA, which is making me uncomfortable. Do you suppose the typical institution Democrat has a thought-out resolution to the affordability disaster? Do you suppose the typical politician thinks deeply about cost-benefit analyses and trade-offs and unintended penalties that don’t—
Frum: You don’t must suppose very deeply in regards to the affordability of housing in New York to say—
Torres: That’s my frustration, although.
Frum: You say, Okay, what we have to do is usher in a bunch of individuals from the business and say, What would it not take to get you to construct 1 / 4 of 1,000,000 items within the 5 boroughs of New York per 12 months? What would we have now to vary so that you can construct 1 / 4 of 1,000,000? After which they’d offer you an inventory of a bunch of concepts, and also you say, Nicely, I can’t do this one, however yeah, okay, the remainder of these we will do. And perhaps we gained’t get 1 / 4 of 1,000,000 items a 12 months; perhaps we’ll get 200,000. What’s being proposed as an alternative are actually—I imply, to say what we’re going to do is take 1,000,000 {dollars} of subsidy per residence, and take the variety of backed flats we’re constructing from 10,000 a 12 months to twenty,000 a 12 months in a metropolis the place 6 million persons are making use of for housing, that’s a magic wishing bean. That’s not going to do something for anyone.
Torres: I agree. However Eric Adams has been mayor for 4 years. Has he had that convening? I imply, it’s not sufficient for center-left Democrats to denigrate the sloganeering of the far left, which I agree is sloganeering. However we have now to truly provide and put ahead an affordability agenda, proper? We should always not put ourselves within the place of defending a establishment that’s genuinely failing a era of younger People. There are younger People who’re struggling to deal with the crushing value of housing and better schooling and health-care, and we have now to handle their anxieties in regards to the affordability costs.
I’ll simply echo what I mentioned earlier: It’s not sufficient for the middle left to be in opposition to the far left, to sneer at them. We really need to put ahead an affordability agenda. We have now to be extra introspective about our failures, to be blunt.
Frum: Let me ask you about these failures. The Democratic Get together is true now doing an enormous, supposedly, after-action evaluation of the 2024 election. And there are imply tales circulating, which say, Oh, however all the pieces that’s really the questions you’d wish to speak about are off the desk. We’re not going to speak about Biden staying within the race arguably too lengthy. We’re not going to speak about having or not having a main to interchange him. We’re gonna speak about all the pieces else. And it jogs my memory a bit of little bit of the 2012 Republican post-mortem, the place the Republican Get together determined the answer to Romney’s defeat in 2012 was Jeb Bush. And so it obtained a workforce of six folks, 4 of whom had tight connections to Jeb Bush, to put in writing a report saying, What do we’d like? They usually wrote a report that took 80 pages to say, What we’d like is Jeb Bush. And that turned out, really, to not be the proper reply, nevertheless it was very a lot the product of an in-group. And it seems just like the Democratic Get together is doing the identical factor.
Torres: Look—I really feel like we should always acknowledge that we screwed up, after which transfer on. If we deny that there was a problem, it merely serves to perpetuate the story. We should always acknowledge that Biden ought to have determined early on to not run for reelection. There ought to have been a full main course of. And I occur to imagine that the American main course of—which is for much longer than the method in Britain is—is a unprecedented character-building expertise. It’s a take a look at of character. It’s a take a look at of resilience. And you already know, I usually quote Frederick Nietzsche, who mentioned, “That which doesn’t kill [me], makes [me] stronger.” I really feel such as you’re made higher and stronger and wiser by the calls for, by the trials of the Democratic-primary course of. And that profit was denied to Kamala Harris because the Democratic nominee.
Frum: Is that proper? As a result of—I’m not a Democrat; I’m observing from outdoors—however the Democratic Get together appears to be a household that may’t talk about its enterprise in nondestructive methods. And there’s sure households the place you say, Possibly household remedy is definitely not the correct choice for you, since you’ll kill one another.
So I imply, let’s see how this could work. Supposing President Biden had achieved the patriotic factor and mentioned after the election of 2022, We’ve had this extraordinary end in 2022, significantly better than anyone had purpose to count on. I take that as my private vindication. I’m saying myself the winner right here, and I’m now going to gracefully exit the stage, and I’m declaring an open main. What would’ve occurred? Nicely, folks would’ve mentioned, Oh, you’re betraying the Black lady. Why wasn’t the Black lady you picked ok? Whereas there can be solutions to these questions, no Democrat would simply be capable to articulate what the explanations have been.
And you then flip right into a battle of, you already know, when Democrats argue, they don’t argue about concepts. They don’t argue about, even, personalities. They argue about classes. You’re a homophobe. You’re anti-Black lady. You’re anti-this. You’re anti-rural, anti—and they might’ve simply ripped themselves to items in a massacre, which might’ve left the occasion in arguably even worse form in 2024 than it really was.
Torres: I’m undecided about that. I really feel if we had extra time for a full main course of, we might’ve had a full course of, and we’d’ve revered—we have now Democratic primaries the place you might have quite a lot of folks from each background run, and we conduct these primaries constructively. And infighting shouldn’t be distinctive to the Democratic Get together. There’s no scarcity of infighting within the Republican Get together. And admittedly, I’ll argue that we handle our infighting extra successfully than the Republicans do, simply judging by the overwhelming dysfunction of the Republican Home. I imply, we didn’t vacate our speaker. We didn’t undergo 15 rounds of voting—I neglect the precise quantity—the longest vote in 150 years. For all of our infighting, ours is rather more manageable than what I’m seeing on the opposite aspect of the aisle.
Frum: Let me ask you a private query. You’re too modest to say this your self, however you didn’t go to school. And my spouse, who additionally didn’t go to school, likes to work it into the dialog early. (Laughs.) However you don’t do this. However does that offer you a bonus? As a result of one of many issues I discover in regards to the Democratic world is there’s this jargon of the college that works itself into all types of bizarre—they’ve conversations. They’ve conversations in areas. They converse from positions of privilege. They belong to sure classes. And none of that is the way in which anybody spoke English 15 years in the past, and it’s the primary language of the Democratic Get together. Have you ever type of acquired immunity to that due to your biography?
Torres: You recognize, it’s simply my nature to talk merely to the extent that I can. Like, simply say somebody’s hungry relatively than meals insecure, or say somebody is, you already know, incarcerated relatively than justice-involved. I take advantage of a language that’s acquainted to on a regular basis folks relatively than a language that originates from the academy.
However I attribute my pragmatism to a scarcity of a school diploma. If I had graduated from school, I in all probability, satirically, can be extra ideological in my politics and, I really feel like, really much less in tune with Economics 101.
Frum: Alright, nicely, let me get you again to this query of Economics 101, as a result of housing is the supreme difficulty in your metropolis, and there are individuals who imagine that for those who construct extra housing, housing will change into extra obtainable. There are individuals who suppose for those who construct extra housing, you merely put cash into the arms of individuals we hate who’re criminals and who need to be expropriated and run out of city. How do you might have a dialog between individuals who maintain these two views?
Torres: I imply, I disagree with the second view. For me, it’s not a morality story; it’s economics. Now, there are actually unscrupulous landlords who need to be held accountable, however on the core of the affordability disaster is a spot between provide and demand. The demand for reasonably priced housing far exceeds the provision. So we have now to construct sufficient housing to fulfill the demand, and we have now to make sure that the housing we construct is reasonably priced to the lowest-income households who are sometimes left behind by housing coverage in cities like New York. And I’m a proponent of the abundance motion, which, you already know, to me is a problem for the Democratic Get together. If Republicans purport to be the occasion of much less authorities, we as Democrats shouldn’t be the occasion of extra authorities. We must be the occasion of higher, cheaper, and quicker authorities. And we have now to discover ways to construct higher, cheaper, and quicker, and larger.
And there must be introspection. Why is it that Texas builds extra reasonably priced housing than New York? I believe Houston builds 20 items per 1,000 residents; Austin, 10 items per 1,000 residents; New York, fewer than 4 items per 1,000 residents. So cities like Houston and Austin are outbuilding New York by orders of magnitude. Why is it that Texas, relatively than New York, has emerged because the photo voltaic superpower of America? One of many merciless ironies of our time is that the states—it’s simpler to construct clean-energy infrastructure within the states that deny local weather change than it’s within the states that contemplate it an emergency. So I really feel just like the abundance motion is a problem, is an invite for Democrats to essentially reimagine what it means to control progressively.
And progressive governance must be outlined by precise progress. It must be outlined not by extra spending, however by extra provide. What issues ultimately shouldn’t be solely extra housing spending—I’m in favor of extra housing spending—but in addition increasing the precise provide of housing in order that extra folks have entry to properties.
Frum: There’s a basic novel about American city politics referred to as The Final Hurrah. And in The Final Hurrah, a younger man is being groomed to run for mayor of Boston, and he’s given introductions to this facet of metropolis politics and this facet of metropolis politics. After which lastly, his coaches say to him, Now we come to crucial half: international coverage. And he says, Overseas coverage? Nicely, why do I want any international coverage to be mayor of Boston? They are saying, Don’t fear. It’s not that tough. You simply want to recollect two sentences: “Trieste belongs to Italy, and all Eire shall be free.” That’s it.
And there appears to be one thing like that happening in New York, the place one of many flash factors between you and the Democratic Socialists of America is Gaza, which isn’t one of many 5 boroughs. And isn’t solely the flashpoint, however nearly, like Trieste and Eire, the one one. They’re this world filled with sophisticated, harrowing issues that People gained’t even examine, not to mention develop an opinion about.
Right here’s this one flashpoint: Do you ever discover there’s one thing sort of arbitrary and weird about the way in which that international coverage does and doesn’t contact the politics of New York Metropolis?
Torres: Sure and no. In case you are Dominican, the Dominican Republic shouldn’t be a international nation; it’s an necessary a part of who you might be, proper? When you’re Irish, Eire is a crucial a part of who you might be. And for those who’re Jewish—it’s not true of each Jew, nevertheless it’s true of many, perhaps most—that Israel is a crucial a part of Jewish id. So we’re a hyphenated nation. We’re a rustic the place we love not solely America, however we love the nation of our ancestors, as nicely, proper? And that’s a part of the American story. So in that sense, it is smart to me. Like, although Puerto Rico is a territory of america, I care deeply about Puerto Rico as a result of I’m Puerto Rican. It’s the house of my ancestry.
However it’s unusual. So I’ll offer you an instance of how it may be unusual. In the summertime of 2020, the New York Metropolis Democratic Socialists of America despatched out a questionnaire to city-council candidates, and the questionnaire had a foreign-policy part—by no means thoughts that town council performs no position in setting international coverage—and the foreign-policy part solely had two questions. Query No. 1: Do you pledge by no means to journey to Israel if elected to town council? Query No. 2: Do you help the boycott, divestment, and sanctions motion in opposition to Israel?
So within the Democratic Socialist worldview, it’s morally permissible to journey to China, which has dedicated genocide in opposition to Uyghur Muslims; to journey to Russia, which invaded a sovereign nation-state like Ukraine; to journey to Iran, which is the main state sponsor of terrorism. However journey to the world’s solely Jewish state, that’s strictly forbidden. And that, to me, is an instance of how anti-Zionism can morph right into a type of anti-Semitism.
Frum: The 2-part query is an instance that nothing has modified since—I listened to these two questions, and thought, Huh, Trieste, not there anymore. What occurred to that?
Torres: Nicely, I believe we’ve seen a radicalization of progressive politics with reference to Israel, proper? I imply, progressive politics went from embracing a two-state resolution to embracing a one-state resolution: “Free Palestine, from the river to the ocean.” It went from opposing solely offensive support to Israel to now opposing each defensive and offensive support to Israel, proper? It has change into heresy to even help Iron Dome, which exists to guard Israeli Jews and Arabs from acts of terror, from relentless rocket fireplace. And earlier than October 7, a strong case could possibly be made that Iron Dome was an efficient mechanism for deescalating the Israeli-Palestinian battle.
Frum: Do you suppose the tendency to polarization and radicalism will be undone? If we get favorable social circumstances, like a slowdown in inflation and a pickup in wage progress; if the Trump administration is changed by one thing extra provocative; if the Democrats do nicely sufficient in 2026 that the most-progressive members get remoted, and so they need to play good in the event that they wish to be influential as an alternative of being a part of a really slender majority, the place they’re wanted—can these items be unwound, or do you suppose there’s one thing deeper in our society that’s pushing politics towards these ever-more-extreme views?
Torres: I’m conflicted. I don’t know. A part of me says sure, and a part of me says no. A part of me says polarization is inevitable as a result of the perverse incentive construction of our politics rewards polarization. It rewards political theater. It rewards the extremes. You recognize, for those who’re on the extremes, whether or not you’re the far left or the far proper, you’re going to generate way more fundraising on-line. You’re going to generate extra publicity from cable information and speak radio and elsewhere. You’re gonna have a a lot bigger following on social media. The member of Congress to lift probably the most within the wake of January 6 was Marjorie Taylor Greene after she voted to decertify the election.
And so it does really feel just like the perverse incentives of our politics are conducive to extremism. And it feels just like the social-media algorithm, simply by its very nature, amplifies extremism and disinformation and outrage. In order that’s the place my concern lies.
On the identical time, voters can have a moderating impact on political events, and if we swing the pendulum too far to the left and the voters punish us, we are going to alter. When there was a backlash in opposition to the “Defund the police,” even the left has largely deserted it. I imply, Zohran Mamdani ran away from “Defund the police” as a result of he knew it was deeply unpopular amongst voters. The mismanagement of the migrant disaster, I felt like, had a moderating, humbling impact on the Democratic Get together on the problem of border safety. So I see arguments in each instructions, and I haven’t settled on what I imagine.
Frum: You talked about these incentives, as a result of there’s an incentive that has disappeared. It’s simple—let’s speak about Marjorie Taylor Greene to make this simpler to grasp by trying on the different occasion. Thirty, 40, 50 years in the past, a personality like Marjorie Taylor Greene would’ve gained an election to Congress as a result of as Sam Rayburn mentioned, “The American folks will elect anyone to something as soon as.” So she’s elected to Congress in 1974 or 1984. At that time, any person necessary within the occasion would’ve come to her and mentioned, Look—perhaps you’re a genuinely loopy individual, and there’s nothing anybody can do for you, however perhaps you’d wish to go to the Senate. Possibly you’d wish to be governor. And if that’s the case, it is advisable dial again the loopy, as a result of the loopy can get you to the Home, like, as soon as, twice. It gained’t make you a committee chair within the Home, and it actually gained’t allow you to run for the rest. So in case you have political ambition, you wish to dial again the loopy if it’s in you to dial again the loopy.
And the Marjorie Taylor Greene of a era in the past, or two, would’ve had to consider that, if she have been able to interested by it. And if she weren’t, the political system would’ve washed her away, because it washes away varied varieties of people that genuinely are mentally unbalanced who typically present up in Congress. That doesn’t appear to occur anymore, as a result of folks in your occasion and the Republican Get together say, You recognize, I could possibly be governor, however I’d relatively have 12 million Instagram followers.
Torres: I believe one of the crucial corrosive tendencies in politics has been the celebritization of politics. There are rising numbers of Congress who see Congress not as an establishment, however as a stage on which to carry out, as a theatrical manufacturing. And that’s a dynamic that’s current each on the left and on the correct. However the scenario is way worse, I imagine, on the far proper, as a result of the vast majority of Democrats stay within the heart, whereas I really feel like the middle proper has all however collapsed, and the Republican Get together has been lowered to nothing greater than a cult of persona round Donald Trump. And Donald Trump really represents the Freudian id of the Republican base. And he has created an environment wherein conspiratorial politics can thrive. And you already know, we’re seeing it with the—on the marketing campaign path, he spent a lot of his time stoking the fires of the Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy, and now these fires are threatening to devour his personal administration. So he’s being hoisted by his personal petard.
Frum: Yeah. There’s something so bizarre about that story. Like, did the folks round Trump who made it the central difficulty of their politics not perceive or know that for those who go to the very coronary heart of the labyrinth right here, the individual you’re going to seek out is Donald Trump?
Torres: Sure. Sure.
Frum: I typically ponder whether—nicely, Donald Trump Jr. was, like, one of many main voices on this query. I sort of marvel if there’s one thing oedipal happening, that at some degree he knew that is the story, If I’m enthusiastic about it in ’21, ’22, I appear like a super-Trump loyalist, however really, I do know at some deep degree that I’m destroying my father, whom I hate as a result of he doesn’t respect me. Is there one thing sophisticated happening there? I ponder.
Torres: Look—I’ve no perception into the psyche of the Trump household, however right here’s what I discover unusual. You recognize, MAGA is sort of a faith that sees Donald Trump because the chosen one, proper? Donald Trump was chosen to launch the Epstein recordsdata as a type of revelation and destroy the deep state and drain the swamp. However there’s a easy drawback with the narrative of Donald Trump because the savior, is: How are you going to drain the swamp if you end up a part of the swamp? Like, there’s actually nobody in Washington, D.C., who has nearer and longer ties to Jeffrey Epstein than Donald Trump himself. Even for those who ignore The Wall Road Journal story, in 2002 in a New York journal profile of Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump went on file praising his longstanding, 15-year relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, and mentioned that Epstein loves lovely ladies as a lot as he does, and “lots of them are on the youthful aspect.” He actually mentioned this in 2002. And so the info simply flatly contradict the notion of Donald Trump as the nice savior in opposition to the Epstein-led deep state.
Frum: Nicely, that is the place I’d wish to perhaps finish then, for those who’ll permit a private—in case you are keen to undertake a private observe. I haven’t heard you discuss this within the interviews I’ve heard, however I’ve learn this in profiles of you, in regards to the formative expertise that, for you, that your politics start with Donald Trump as—I don’t know the way younger a boy you have been while you seemed out the window and noticed what was happening. Would you speak a bit of bit about that, your first encounter with Donald Trump and, for those who’re keen, the way it formed the start of your political profession?
Torres: Yeah, so I ought to clarify the significance of public housing, as a result of public housing is the problem that impressed me to run for public workplace. It’s my raison d’être. It’s the problem that issues most to me. So I used to be born and raised within the Bronx, raised by a single mom, grew up in public housing. And in New York Metropolis, we have now an establishment often known as the New York Metropolis Housing Authority, NYCHA, which has endured for about 90 years. It’s the most important supplier of reasonably priced housing within the nation, homes a inhabitants of a few half 1,000,000 folks. And most of these folks, together with my mom, can be homeless with out—I imply, now that I’ve means, I might shield her. However most individuals who dwell in public housing can be homeless with out it. And so it’s a security web of deeply reasonably priced housing that stops homelessness—avenue homelessness—on a catastrophic scale in New York Metropolis.
Regardless of the significance of public housing, it’s been chronically underfunded at each degree of presidency. So you might have kids, asthmatic kids, who’re struggling to breathe within the face of molded and leaking circumstances due to authorities disinvestment. You may have kids who’ve been poisoned by lead in their very own properties, who’ve sustained mind injury for the remainder of their lives due to authorities disinvestment. You may have senior residents who’re freezing of their properties with their boilers breaking down due to federal disinvestment. You may have disabled people who find themselves left stranded of their top-floor flats with their elevators breaking down due to federal disinvestment.
And I grew up in circumstances of mildew and mildew leaks, and lead, with out warmth and sizzling water within the winter. And so I felt that these circumstances that I lived and that I noticed symbolize a humanitarian disaster that was missed by authorities. After which within the mid-2000s, the federal government—this native authorities—determined to speculate greater than $100 million in a golf course that was finally named after Donald Trump.
I keep in mind asking myself on the time, What does it say about our society that we’re keen to speculate extra in a golf course than within the properties of individuals, of poor folks in public housing who’re struggling to outlive? Like, that, to me, represented only a catastrophic misplacement of our priorities. And in order that was the formative expertise that impressed me to get my begin as a housing organizer after which finally take the leap of religion and run for public workplace at age 24. And I spent a complete 12 months doing nothing however knocking on doorways. I went into folks’s properties; I heard their tales. And in a race of about 9 candidates, in opposition to inconceivable odds, I gained my first marketing campaign on the energy of door-to-door, face-to-face campaigning, and have become the youngest elected official in New York Metropolis.
Frum: Have you ever ever had an opportunity to speak to President Trump about his golf course?
Torres: I’ve by no means spoken to Donald Trump in my life—no. And that will not be the primary difficulty I might convey up if I have been to talk to him.
Frum: There are a whole lot of issues to speak about. I ponder whether he might even course of what you’ll wish to say.
Torres: I don’t suppose he cares, and he doesn’t—he doesn’t know, and he doesn’t care to know. And he doesn’t care about—you already know, Jacob Riis famously wrote a chunk of photojournalism about How the Different Half Lives. A lot of the elites of our society, together with Donald Trump, don’t care about how the “different half” lives, don’t have any idea of racially concentrated poverty in a spot just like the Bronx. It makes me cringe to hearken to Republican colleagues and the way wherein—the disdainful method wherein they discuss my constituents. They don’t know my constituents. I had an argument with Scott Jennings as a result of he gives the look that everybody on Medicaid is an undocumented immigrant or is a lazy 29-year-old, enjoying video video games. And I mentioned, A lot of the nonworking inhabitants are caregivers and college students. And I can guarantee you these caregivers are working a lot more durable than you might be.
Frum: So is that this a spot the place the middle and the left reverse themselves once more? That there’s one thing intense and private and unperformative about the way in which you method politics?
Torres: I believe probably the most profitable elected officers are going to be those that defy the easy categorization. And I’m simply going to do the most effective that I can do as a public servant and let the remaining maintain itself. However I see the sloganeering of the left for what it’s, however I additionally see the self-love of the institution for what it’s. I’m not going to place myself within the place of defending an institution that’s genuinely failing communities like mine.
Frum: Congressman Torres, thanks a lot on your time right now.
Torres: It was an honor to be right here.
Frum: Bye-bye.
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Frum: I thank Congressman Torres for becoming a member of The David Frum Present right now. Thanks all for watching. I thank The Picton Gazette, whose hospitality I’m benefiting from as I file this program right here, in Picton, Ontario. I hope you’ll subscribe to this system, prefer it, share it on varied platforms. The easiest way we will convey this type of content material to extra folks is with the assistance and help of our viewers and listeners. The easiest way, in fact, all the time, to help the work of this podcast and of me and all my colleagues at The Atlantic is to subscribe to The Atlantic. I hope you’ll contemplate doing simply that.
Thanks a lot for becoming a member of right now. I’ll see you quickly, on the following version of The David Frum [Show].
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Frum: This episode of The David Frum Present was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the manager producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m David Frum. Thanks for listening.
