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The visitor on this episode of Radio Atlantic wouldn’t describe herself as “enjoyable at events,” however not less than she is aware of it. “I’ve by no means actually favored my character,” wrote Olga Khazan in 2022, “and different individuals don’t prefer it both.” A couple of years in the past, Khazan got down to change her character, a activity many individuals assume is not possible. As Khazan explains, within the late 1800s, William James, who is taken into account the daddy of recent psychology, developed a concept that an individual’s character is ready in plaster round age 30. James himself was depressive and neurotic, and he suffered from what he known as “soul-sickness.” Fortunately, he was additionally incorrect. Later analysis confirmed that folks can, in actual fact, shift even core elements of their character, in the event that they work at it systematically.
After consulting with the specialists on character plasticity after which setting a deadline, Khazan put herself by way of an intense experiment meant to make herself extra likeable, to herself and others. Her evaluations weren’t gentle and subjective however numerical; Khazan examined and scored herself on a variety of key character traits initially and finish of the experiment. On this episode, Khazan and I speak about two of these traits: extroversion and neuroticism. Khazan shares how for her ebook Me, However Higher, she dragged herself to improv courses and meditation classes, and the way having a child threw a kink in her experiment.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: There’s one factor I actually don’t like about myself. I imply, there are a number of, however I’m solely going to inform you about this one proper now. It may be probably the most stunning day—like springtime, cherry blossoms each route you look—and instantly, instinctively, my thoughts will scan for the one factor flawed. Like, Gross! There’s pollen throughout that automotive.
I’ve positively tried through the years to do this or that to counteract it, like domesticate a extra optimistic mindset or begin my day by saying three issues I’m grateful for. However I believe there’s simply part of me that thinks, Effectively, that’s simply how Hanna is, like there’s some core of Hanna Rosin, whether or not it’s genetic or epigenetic or realized, that may at all times scan for the unfavorable.
I’m Hanna Rosin. That is Radio Atlantic, and immediately we’re speaking about character—what it’s and whether or not it’s one thing you possibly can really change.
Olga Khazan: So, many many years in the past, William James did give you this concept that character is type of set like plaster at age 30, and it by no means softens once more after age 30.
Rosin: That’s employees author Olga Khazan. And the William James she’s speaking about is taken into account the daddy of American psychology. However his view of character doesn’t maintain as much as fashionable scrutiny.
Khazan: There wasn’t an entire lot of analysis on character or psychology. It simply wasn’t actually a developed science. So when researchers began doing extra fashionable research about this, what they discovered, after following the identical group of individuals for many years and many years, is that most individuals really do change, and in the event that they do stuff to attempt to change, they sort of change even quicker.
Rosin: Like me, Olga had issues about her character that she wished she might change. And when she realized that it’s not so set in stone, she thought she’d give it a attempt. She made it a monthslong challenge, an experiment. And he or she wrote about it in a brand new ebook known as Me, However Higher.
[Music]
Rosin: So I like this concept. I discover it very inspiring, as I’m positive lots of people do. Why did you begin it? Like, clearly, there have been issues about your self that you simply didn’t like—which there are issues about all of us that we don’t like, however what was it in your case?
Khazan: Yeah, so on prime of not liking sure issues about myself, one thing that I observed is that I simply wasn’t very completely satisfied, and I wasn’t having fun with my life to the extent that I assumed that I might.
So what began this was I had only a actually tough day. I used to be in Miami in December, so positively nothing to complain about environment-wise. I needed to go get skilled photographs taken for our job, and I needed to get a haircut earlier than the photographs have been taken. And so I am going; I ebook a hair appointment. This haircut is horrible. It’s most likely one of many worst haircuts I’ve ever gotten in my life.
Rosin: Particulars. Particulars. Was it a bang downside?
Khazan: It wasn’t a bang downside. Okay, I attempt to emphasize each time I get my hair reduce that my hair doesn’t take layers effectively. And so they at all times do layers, regardless of what I explicitly mentioned. And possibly I would like to only be extra simple about it. However anyway—so there was like a mushrooming impact due to the try at layers.
Rosin: (Laughs.) I’m sorry. I’m sorry, yeah.
Khazan: (Laughs.) Anyway, so I’m leaving the hairstylist’s. I’m like, Oh my God. I look horrible. I needed to go on to the picture session, the place I obtained skilled photographs taken that appeared actually dangerous, for my part, after which I needed to, instantly, drive on to the grocery retailer to get a bunch of groceries for dinner that evening.
And as I used to be driving, I went the flawed means and obtained caught on this island that cruise ships launch from. Then, as soon as I recovered from that, I obtained to the grocery retailer, and as I used to be leaving, my purchasing cart locked. And I needed to drag the purchasing cart throughout the car parking zone to my automotive. And whereas this all was occurring, my boss was Slacking me edits on a narrative. So I do these edits sitting on this sizzling automotive. I drive on, I get again to the Airbnb, and I simply freak out.
Like, I truthfully simply had a meltdown—not a panic assault, however crying, chugging wine, simply screaming, like, I hate everybody. And I settled down, ultimately, and I used to be type of like, Why do I react so badly to issues which are sort of minor? Truthfully, simply even recounting that day as a brand new mother or father, I’m sort of like, Eh, so. That’s dangerous, however that’s not that dangerous.
And I sort of realized that it was my character that was making days like that worse than they needed to be, that was undermining my happiness in these moments.
Rosin: Okay, I simply wanna query that for one second: Initially, I’m sorry you had that day. It sucks, and I perceive you simply wish to be pissed off. Like, you don’t wanna be screaming and crying. You don’t wish to have a breakdown. You simply wanna be casually pissed off. I believe lots of people, when they’re unhappy or they really feel sad, the standard route is: See a shrink. Get on meds. You already know—no matter—journal.
I don’t assume that I’d have thought, Okay, it’s my precise character. Like, to take a look at your self, break your character down, I imply, it’s fascinating. It was an fascinating response you had, and I’m questioning the way you even knew in that second to take a look at your self and assume, Oh, it’s my character.
Khazan: Yeah, so, really, seeing a shrink and taking remedy do change your character, additionally.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing!
Khazan: And that’s to say that character change is sort of the foundation of numerous various kinds of private development and self-improvement. So what I used to be sort of describing simply now’s a excessive stage of neuroticism, which I did have.
And so bringing that down is character change. And a technique to try this is thru remedy and drugs. However I believe sort of past simply neuroticism, I used to be additionally simply sort of sad with different elements of my life. Like, I truthfully simply didn’t socialize a lot. I sort of reflexively didn’t socialize.
I didn’t have numerous mates, which to me was a unique factor than neuroticism. After which I sort of simply was actually snippy with my boyfriend on the time—my husband now—and truthfully, would get in numerous fights with my mates, which is, like, this different trait known as “agreeableness.”
So I don’t know. It felt extra, like, all-encompassing than simply the I must deal with my stress higher.
Rosin: Proper. Okay. So that you’ve been mentioning a few of the fundamental traits that you simply define in your ebook. Are you able to simply lay out the completely different elements so we are able to comply with you thru this experiment?
Khazan: So there’s 5 traits that make up character, and all of us have these 5 traits within us. And they are often remembered with the acronym OCEAN.
So it’s o for “openness to experiences,” which is like creativity and imaginativeness; c for “conscientiousness,” which is like being on time, being tremendous organized, being actually diligent; e for “extroversion,” so being sociable, cheerful, energetic; c for “agreeableness,” which is being heat and empathetic and trusting; and n for “neuroticism,” which is being neurotic, being anxious and depressed.
Rosin: Okay. In order that’s the way you began to interrupt your individual issues down. Like, there’s this bucket, that bucket, that bucket. We received’t do the entire OCEAN of character, however I actually wish to speak about just a few that curiosity me probably the most. Perhaps we’ll begin with extroversion, as a result of being outgoing is a typical purpose.
A lot of individuals say, Oh, I wish to have extra mates, significantly post-pandemic. How extroverted have been you firstly of this course of?
Khazan: Let me search for my actual rating.
Rosin: Oh, there have been scores?
Khazan: Sure!
Rosin: Okay, so that you really get a quantity.
Khazan: Yeah, if you take the character check I used to be taking, you do get a quantity.
Rosin: That’s just a little brutal.
Khazan: Yeah. Oh, okay—I scored within the twenty third percentile, which could be very low, particularly when it got here to being pleasant or cheerful.
Rosin: Uh-huh. Attention-grabbing. Okay. (Laughs.) Whenever you first obtained that quantity, how did that really feel?
Khazan: I used to be like, That checks out.
Rosin: (Laughs.) Uh-huh. You weren’t shocked. Okay. So how did you go about this? Like, that’s the sort of factor the place somebody would say, Okay, effectively, I’m simply not that extroverted, and one highway can be acceptance: I’m simply not that extroverted. I’m going to remain house and watch TV loads.
Khazan: Yeah, and I did that highway for a very long time. So one sort of fascinating twist right here is that when psychologists take a bunch of introverts they usually inform them, Exit and act like extroverts for a couple of minutes. Go socialize. Go hang around. After which they arrive again they usually’re like, How do you’re feeling? They really say they really feel happier. And so they additionally say they really feel extra like themselves.
Rosin: One thing about your saying that makes me nervous. I believe it’s simply due to the Susan Cain ebook Quiet, the place we’ve come to understand the ability of introverts, you already know? What do you say about that?
Khazan: So yeah, I actually, actually favored the ebook Quiet, and I actually like Susan Cain personally. I simply assume that there are advantages for introverts to often act like extroverts. I believe it’s okay to nonetheless determine as an introvert and to understand the entire perks that include that, however to additionally sometimes have the ability to not less than attempt on this extra outgoing character trait.
Rosin: So if you got down to attempt to change this a part of your self, you already know, increase your rating—we’ll simply put it that means, concretely—have been you saying to your self, I wish to change Olga and make Olga not an introvert? Or, I wish to attempt on extraversion generally, like a fancy dress? Or, I wish to change my rating? Like, what was your purpose?
Khazan: My purpose was to vary my rating, so to be extra extroverted. I didn’t assume it could work effectively sufficient to make me an extrovert. In the long run, I believe my newest check that I took did put me technically within the extrovert class. However I didn’t assume that it could work that effectively.
Rosin: Okay. So how did you do it?
Khazan: I signed up for a bunch of actions and went to them. I signed up for improv comedy, a crusing membership, a bunch of meetups. And I threw a celebration at my home for the primary time.
Rosin: Wow. And all of the whereas, simply so individuals perceive what this type of experiment is like, in case they wish to attempt it, are you uncomfortable? Like, certainly, you’re going towards your, what you initially known as, pure inclinations.
Khazan: So I ended up doing improv for about eight months or so. And possibly for the primary six months, each time I went, I felt this overwhelming sense of dread. Like, you virtually want that you can get in a automotive accident on the best way there so that you simply wouldn’t should go.
Rosin: That’s excessive. I completely sympathize. I perceive. Yeah.
Khazan: Like, is there any strategy to get out of this? Any means? Like, Please, God, don’t make me go. Like, I’ve excessive stage fright. And so that you get there, and also you’re all sitting in a circle, after which in some unspecified time in the future you stand up, and also you simply begin doing improv with the opposite people who find themselves there.
Rosin: And the rationale it helps you change into extroverted is as a result of it’s relational. Like, it’s a must to be deeply attuned to this whole stranger. You need to be on the stage. You need to carry out. Like, it simply forces you into actions which are extroverted.
Khazan: Oh, sure, and it makes you change into far more snug with chaos as a result of on a regular basis dialog is chaotic, however improv is much more chaotic than that.
Rosin: Proper. After which, so let’s say the twentieth time you’re going to improv class, does the preliminary dread fade, or it’s at all times that cycle?
Khazan: I believe, over time, it did fade, however even earlier than it fully went away naturally, I’d begin to really feel it, and I’d sort of inform myself, like, No, you’re gonna be advantageous. It’s simply improv. It’s okay—you’re gonna really feel good after. You already know, it’s similar to how I speak to my son now. It’s like, No, you want this components. That is the nice form. (Laughs.)
Rosin: That’s so humorous. So that is tough to grasp. So by the top, you’re doing it with just a little bit much less dread. You’re nonetheless speaking your self into it. You’re ready to do it, so that you’re not avoiding it; you’re doing it. You’re, at instances, having fun with it, nevertheless it’s nonetheless not your pure inclination.
Khazan: So I’d say it’s to not do improv, nevertheless it’s to attach with different individuals once I’m feeling down. Like, if I’m feeling remoted and withdrawn, I don’t really feel like the answer is simply to spend extra time on my own. I really feel prefer it’s to attach with others and type of get out of my head just a little.
Rosin: However that truly appears revolutionary. Like, for those who consider one among our largest issues now, which is lack of connection, the concept which you could really work at it, you already know, method it like a challenge and alter it slowly, such that what you bought—okay, possibly you’re not going to be on SNL, in order that’s not your future—however what does change is that you simply don’t go deeper into your self when you’re feeling no matter you’re feeling. Like, you search some sort of connection. And analysis does present that that’s wholesome.
Khazan: Yeah, and that’s sort of the science behind why extroverts have a tendency to point out up as happier. They sort of simply spend numerous time round different individuals, and different individuals are inclined to make us completely satisfied, regardless that we are able to all consider instances when different individuals haven’t made us completely satisfied.
However, you already know, I’m actually glad I did that earlier than having a child, as a result of I believe that my method to new motherhood would have been completely completely different in any other case and way more isolating if I hadn’t performed this experiment to see, Okay, really, being round others and connecting socially, and even in a means that’s foolish and doesn’t completely make sense is, like, nonetheless factor.
Rosin: Oh, that’s superb. What’s your extroversion rating now?
Khazan: Proper now, my extroversion—it says it’s very excessive.
Rosin: Very excessive. So it went from very low to very excessive.
Khazan: Sure, it’s not within the prime 10 %. I’d say it’s most likely, like—I don’t know—sixtieth percentile now.
Rosin: I do know, however you’re getting all formidable now. Like, you wish to be within the prime ten %.
Khazan: I didn’t get into the Harvard of extroversion. (Laughs.)
Rosin: Precisely. (Laughs.)
Khazan: However yeah.
Rosin: That’s superb. Okay. Very, very impressed. And I really feel like individuals ought to attempt it.
[Music]
Rosin: In order that was extroversion—the e in OCEAN. After the break, Olga takes us by way of one other part of her ebook: the n—the unfavorable, nervous, capital-n “Neurotics.”
[Break]
Rosin: Okay. Let’s transfer on to the second trait that I wish to speak about, which is neuroticism, the n of OCEAN. That’s one which I believe many individuals wish to change about themselves, myself included. What did your place to begin there seem like?
Khazan: I believe I scored increased than, like, actually everybody else on earth.
Rosin: (Laughs.)
Khazan: Oh, I used to be within the 94th percentile.
Rosin: So you probably did get into the Harvard of neuroticism.
Khazan: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I’m graduating.
Rosin: Glorious. And we’re laughing, however the feeling—I imply, everybody’s model of neurotic is completely different, however are you able to speak just a little bit about your individual model? Like, what’s it that bothered you about your neuroticism?
Khazan: So I used to be principally at all times anxious. Like, there simply wasn’t a time once I wasn’t anxious. I used to be consistently desirous about stuff sooner or later that would go flawed, or stuff prior to now that did go flawed, and, like, Why did I permit it to go flawed? When good issues would occur, there was no residing within the second or appreciating the nice factor.
It was, like, onto the subsequent factor that would go flawed. Or like, Oh, this sundown is nice, however the one yesterday was higher. You already know, like on trip, we might get to some stunning attraction or landmark of some form, and I’d be like, Okay, what’s subsequent?
Rosin: Proper.
Khazan: That sort of factor. Yeah.
Rosin: So that you began out with Harvard-level, high-baseline neuroticism. This one is difficult to face, I’ll say, so what was your means of making an attempt to vary it?
Khazan: So I adopted this one examine that’s been performed on character change, however numerous these strategies have been, like, numerous gratitude journaling—and I did try this—however numerous it was additionally meditation.
Rosin: Ugh.
Khazan: —which, I do know.
Rosin: Is there anything?
Khazan: I do know. I used to be, like, Significantly? I used to be diving so deep into the psychology. Is there one thing the place I can, like, stroll backwards for a mile and be cured?
Rosin: You understand how there are headlines generally which are like: “That is the One Factor You Must Do.” It’s at all times meditation. So I’m like, You’re not stunning me on this headline.
Khazan: Sure, sure. Yeah, it’s at all times meditation. It was certainly meditation. So it was a meditation class that I took. It was, like, sort of like Buddhism for Dummies—like, through the day, we might all collect and they might do that PowerPoint with sort of very fundamental Buddhist concepts.
After which, we needed to meditate for 45 minutes a day.
[Music]
Rosin: As inexperienced persons?
Khazan: Sure.
Rosin: That’s an intimidating period of time.
Khazan: It was actually, actually, actually onerous. I truthfully don’t assume I might do it with a child now. I don’t actually have 45 minutes anymore. However I believe if persons are making an attempt this at house, I believe they need to begin with means much less, as a result of it could actually really feel so daunting that you simply’re like, Why even hassle? You already know? And there’s numerous meditations on the market that I additionally discovered efficient which are a lot shorter, like 10 or quarter-hour.
Rosin: So that you, beginning out because the individual with excessive neuroticism, face meditation as an individual who sees meditation everywhere in the tradition, so there’s already a barrier to entry. So how do you slide into that one? As a result of I really perceive the advantages of meditation; I simply additionally perceive the cultural ubiquity of meditation and, thus, the resistance to it, you already know? So how do you sneak your means in in order that it’s useful?
Khazan: Yeah, so I principally was, like, dragged kicking and screaming. And in contrast to with improv, I didn’t get pleasure from it at any level. So we might have these cellphone calls with our meditation instructor to see how issues have been going, and principally all my cellphone calls have been all about how a lot I hated meditation.
Rosin: Which is possibly neurotic, like—
Khazan: I’m not doing it proper. I used to be like, Can I hearken to music? Can I hearken to a podcast? Can I wash the dishes? She’s like, No, you could be there and, like, sit with no matter comes up. And no matter stuff she mentioned, I used to be like, That doesn’t make any sense.
We had an all-day meditation retreat, the place all we did was meditate all day. It was, like, the worst day of my life. I hated it a lot, like—oh my God. And so they have been—at one level I believe they obtained pissed off with me, as a result of they’re like: You sound such as you’re striving, and also you’re not presupposed to attempt in meditation.
And I used to be like, Yeah, after all I’m striving. So, yeah, it was simply so onerous and so painful. And it labored.
Rosin: Whoa! Okay, so are you able to describe how the flip occurred? I believe many individuals would wish to know.
Khazan: So I don’t assume there ever was a flip. I type of hated it all over the retreat. After which I took the check not lengthy after the retreat. And my neuroticism had really fallen a lot that it was thought-about low. It was within the thirty ninth percentile.
Rosin: Wait—you went from 97 % to low?
Khazan: Yeah, I not scored, like, extraordinarily excessive or no matter it was. However I’ll say, it was principally due to a change in my melancholy rating. Like, so I’ve actually, actually excessive anxiousness, and I additionally had excessive melancholy, and my melancholy went down by loads, and my anxiousness additionally went down just a little however not by as a lot.
Rosin: And what do you attribute that to? I imply, that’s superb. Like, you already know, taking place on melancholy or anxiousness is implausible. So what do you attribute it to? Do you attribute it to the meditation or to the act of specializing in your self for some period of time so that you simply’re taking your melancholy critically, or what was it?
Khazan: So two-part reply right here. One is that—so this class that I took known as MBSR has gone head-to-head with the antidepressant Lexapro, and it really works, allegedly, in addition to Lexapro. So there’s sort of precedent for it bringing down anxiousness and melancholy.
And I believe the reply—possibly it was the meditation simply working within the background, like sweeping away the cobwebs or no matter with out me noticing. You already know, since you’re supposed to only let your ideas cross like clouds or no matter. However I believe the extra sort of instantly efficacious factor was that these Buddhism for Dummies classes have been very useful for me.
Regardless that I assumed they have been sort of silly, I discovered them actually useful. And particularly, my meditation instructor would at all times say, Issues occur that we don’t like. And I spotted that I used to be somebody who was very crammed with self-blame for issues not going the best way they have been, quote-unquote, “supposed” to go.
Like getting caught in visitors—I’d get this overwhelming rage at myself every time I used to be caught in visitors. And it was—it’s visitors. Like, you already know, there’s nothing you are able to do about it. However I spotted that I had this, I don’t know, flawed picture of different individuals’s lives as excellent as a result of they handle them completely, and that I’m the one one who can’t.
And for some purpose, this, like, PowerPoint-focused Buddhism class helped me do away with a few of that.
Rosin: I consider all the things the Buddhists say. I’ve by no means discovered any of it unhelpful. It’s at all times extremely useful if I can simply get myself to take a seat down and listen.
Khazan: Sure.
Rosin: Okay, so principally, this experiment was profitable for you.
Khazan: Sure, sure.
Rosin: And when did you do it?
Khazan: I did this proper earlier than I obtained pregnant.
Rosin: All proper. In order that’s an necessary marker. So that will be, like, two years in the past you probably did this experiment. Now what has stayed with you about it?
Khazan: S I’ll say that proper after I had Evan, my scores obtained all—like, I’m taking a look at my graphs of my scores, and there’s like an enormous dip on all of them proper after the child got here, as a result of postpartum melancholy can have an effect on all this stuff. Additionally, you’re not socializing, you’re not being good, you’re not being conscientious, you’re not showering in that instant postpartum interval.
So all of them crashed and burned proper after the child got here. However I really only recently took the checks once more. You already know, he’s 1-year-old now, and I simply took them once more, like, a month in the past. And so they really went again up—not fairly to the extent as they have been once I was doing the ebook, however again up for probably the most half, I’d say, throughout all of the traits.
And I believe that’s simply because I’ve been ready these days to get again extra into a few of what I used to be doing for the ebook, not all of them.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing. Okay. So the way you’re utilizing this in your life, this entire experiment that you simply did, is: Initially, it satisfied you which you could change issues about components of your character. You already know that to be true now. And so you’ve these markers, they usually primarily function targets.
And for those who’re discovering your self to be sad, then you possibly can work on one or one other of those targets. Like, it simply lets you be extra self-aware, discover issues about your self. And it provides you some very concrete instruments to repair it.
Khazan: Yeah, that’s how I see it. And that’s—I imply, Nate Hudson, the researcher whose work sort of kinds the spine of the ebook, he actually describes character traits as instruments. Like, they make it easier to get what you need in life. Which is why I sort of shrink back from the, like, Don’t change your character for those who like your self, as a result of, you already know, I favored myself earlier than, and I like myself now. However now I really feel like I understand how to get extra out of life.
Rosin: That’s actually, actually fascinating. You wouldn’t have minded your self for those who’d been a considerably remoted mom who didn’t see that many moms.
Khazan: Yeah, I don’t assume I’d’ve. You already know, I believe I’d have had a a lot lonelier and extra irritating postpartum expertise. I believe I’d have simply thought that’s what it’s like.
Rosin: Like, that’s Olga’s model of parenting, and that’s okay. Like, you wouldn’t have hated your self for it.
Khazan: Yeah, precisely. However as a substitute what I did is I joined this new-moms group, and basically I simply have made extra of a degree of reaching out to different new mothers, and simply sort of getting collectively as a lot as doable, and even simply protecting in contact over WhatsApp or no matter—sharing experiences or simply, like, What the hell is that this? Is that this regular? That sort of stuff.
That has truthfully made it a lot much less dangerous, I believe, and fewer isolating. Like, I wouldn’t say that I’ve a village, nevertheless it’s simply good to not really feel such as you’re the one individual on this planet who’s ever had a child.
Rosin: Yeah. So you’ve the benefit of going into motherhood with all of this understanding of character. Have you ever discovered your self speaking about your son or desirous about your son with a few of this analysis in thoughts?
Khazan: Yeah, you already know, Evan could be very smiley, and he’s simply very completely satisfied. He smiles very simply. He smiles at individuals he is aware of and likes. And my mother and father inform me that I used to be not like that. (Laughs.)
Rosin: (Laughs.) Thanks, Mother. Yeah.
Khazan: So the best way I speak about it, I’m like, Oh, he will get that from my husband, Wealthy. And I don’t know. I’m identical to, I actually—sorry, I’m making an attempt to not choke up.
Rosin: That’s okay.
Khazan: I actually, like, wish to not mess that up for him. Like, I wish to—I don’t know. Sorry.
Rosin: No, that’s okay. You wish to preserve him completely satisfied.
Khazan: Yeah, not preserve him completely satisfied, however I hope that that continues. I don’t know.
Rosin: Yeah. No, I assumed you have been going someplace completely different. I assumed what you have been going to say is, I don’t wish to take into consideration his character as mounted. Like, I wish to permit him—like, if he desires to be sad, or if he desires to be a unique means, or throw a mood tantrum, that’s okay. Like, I’ll take into account that we are able to, you already know, transfer in direction of a purpose later.
However I believe what you’re saying is extra easy and exquisite, and I recognize that. I’m sorry that your mother was—it was like when my mother used to inform me how a lot cuter my brother was than me as a child, each single time we take a look at child footage.
Khazan: Beautiful.
Rosin: Yeah. Effectively, Olga, thanks a lot. I really feel like this can encourage lots of people to attempt it. So thanks a lot for writing it down.
Khazan: Yeah, completely. Thanks a lot for having me on.
[Music]
Rosin: This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. We had engineering assist from Rob Smierciak and fact-checking by Genevieve Finn. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
Listeners, for those who like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, keep in mind you possibly can assist our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists if you subscribe to The Atlantic at TheAtlantic.com/listener.
I’m Hanna Rosin. Thanks for listening.
